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 Post subject: Blue/ Black Telogreika
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 14:04 pm 
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Real Name: Rich
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I've always been led to believe that blue or black telogreikas are of non militiary issuse, either for POWs or just a civilian version. However after looking through all the photos of naval infantry personnel I could find a number of the men in the pictures are wearing telogreikas that appear to be somewhat darker than you'd expect a standard Khaki/green telog to be in a black and white photo. Some have even been recoloured to show them as black, although its unclear when and by who this was done.

Is it possible that blue/black versions were infact issued to naval personnel and is there any additional evidence to support this? Or is it just simply a case of naval personnel acquiring civilian models either through necessity or pride in looking different from their army counterparts?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 15:01 pm 
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Naval winter-wear is the Bushlat, known in the Western navies as a "pea jacket".

Nobody *yet* is producing the correct pattern... but soon!

The other option is the Shinel (black, Naval)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 15:52 pm 
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Thanks but that doesn't really answer my question. I know the standard issue was bushlat and shinel but I'd like to know if it is possible that black telogreikas were issued as well. The top two images show normal telogreikas in use whilst the bottom set they are darker.
Image
Image

These all appear to be from the same set; note how much darker the telogs looks. Clearly whoever recoloured the bottom image (& there are several others) thought they were black. Either the unit was issued them or they aquired a large number of civilian ones of their own accord.

Image
Image
Image
Image


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Nobody *yet* is producing the correct pattern... but soon!

Do you not consider this Bushlat is good enough then?

http://voenspec.ru/product/bushlat-matrosskii-sukonnyi-dlya-lichnogo-sostava-rkkf-779/


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:51 am 
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I know tank crew were issued with black telogreika's perhaps they acquired them privately through this route I cant imagine a sailor choosing a green telog if he has a chance to get a black one.

or maybe they were issued with surplus tankers telogs by a local commander when they assumed the naval infantry role as black would be more in keeping with the rest of their uniform. Everyone knows that the red army are famous for their colour coordination and accesorising abilities :D

cheers Andy

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:53 am 
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Its tricky to determine really. The telogreika doesn't feature in (RKKA) uniform regulations as its actually part of the winter equipment set - that and the vatny-sharovari are actually to be worn underneath the greatcoat, according to the original design.

So it doesn't appear in the regulations book any more than the colour of underpants is shown...

You do see in photos the wearing of non-green telogs by various branches of service - you sometimes see black/grey ones with tank units for example, but you also see green ones too.

I personally wouldn't go out of my way to find a black one for a naval impression. The bushlat or shinel is a better naval look IMHO - I love wearing either, it just looks so smart!

As for the bushlat on that link.... hmmm its hard to see, but I have my doubts because they say the size is "52-4", that sizing scheme is the more modern post-war sizing used by the Soviets. Its either unconverted or bodged into something it isn't. I've looked at converting one before and the opinion of the costumers I talked to was that its wasn't possible to get close enough from that postwar item without basically turning uniforms into material and rebuilding from the ground up.

There is a new source for these soon - the guy concerned has originals and is cutting patterns for them now to make them for a new film about the Naval Infantry of a river flotilla (I gotta see this film!!) but they aren't available to buy...yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:16 am 
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The major difference between the wartime and post war naval bushlat, as I understand it, is that the buttons on the wartime ones are parallel while the postwar ones taper. Being closer together at the bottom than at the top. This difference, clearly, is impossible to change through tailoring as it involves the position of the buttonholes.

There may be others (not my interest really) but that's the obvious 'eyes on' difference.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:42 am 
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I think we once compared the original Za Ob holds to my 80's one I wear for WPFG and there's more to it than that... what exactly I can't remember as its been quite a few years since then!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:46 am 
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Oh yeah, you've reminded me of one other. Wartime ones are unlined IIRC post war ones are lined.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:05 pm 
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I wasn't actually looking to buy a black telogreika, I'd much rather have a bushlat. 8) I'm just interested from a historical perspective. Although my Bezkozyrka is a Northern Fleet one so I could try to recreate the photos with a black telog, all I'd need otherwise is an MTB. :lol:

I believe the Bushlats in the link are repro, hence the more modern sizing. Its definitely not a postwar one. A member of the 2nd guards forum has one and it looks pretty good so I'm very tempted by it.

Please keep us informed regarding the ones that are being made for the film though. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 15:04 pm 
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Looking at the photos you posted Rich (I couldnt see them before from where I was - blocked by the firewall!) I'd say:

Pic#1 Impossible to guess the colour, its just dark shadow
Pic#2 That probably is green... could be grey I suppose, but more likely green
Pic#3 Could be green, might not be
Pic#4 Thats interesting, its not telogs at all. Dunno what that is!
Pic#5 If you compare the plash (2nd from right) to the telog (far right) they are the same... green. No black plashes!
Pic#6 Hard to say when its been recoloured....

Re repro Bushlat.... would you know a 80's one if you saw it.... I do, we do 1980's Soviet Army/Fleet/VVS and have a massive collection ;-)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 15:43 pm 
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You may be right about the colours, I guess we'll never really know...

Yes I know an 80s bushlat when I see one, I'm wearing one right now. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 15:57 pm 
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LOL cool 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:12 am 
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On a lighter note....I love those sideburns! But, if any of Za Ob are looking at these pictures and thinking it's a good look the answer is NYET! (accompanied by much banging of shoes on the table).

Also, the one where some sailors are sitting down on a boat (I'm at work right now so can't see the photos to reference it better)....the seated sailor furthest from the camera is carrying what I believe to be a Thompson (M1928A1 with Cutts compensator). Andy, this is the photo I mentioned elsewhere during our discussion about Thompson's in the Northern Fleet (I tell you these long winter nights just fly by :lol: ). It's in Zaloga's old Signal book Soviet Army Uniforms &c. I'd had the book years before I noticed that one.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:16 am 
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Frontovik wrote:
On a lighter note....I love those sideburns! But, if any of Za Ob are looking at these pictures and thinking it's a good look the answer is NYET! (accompanied by much banging of shoes on the table).


Actually... I did think that when I finally saw the images yesterday...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:23 am 
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Interesting, I never noticed that before. It does indeed look very much like a 1928. It certianly has a drum mag and the muzzle don't match either PpSh or Ppd. So it must be either a 1928 or an M31 with muzzle break and it appears to have a wooden forgrip which suggests thompson.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 20:29 pm 
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This is allegedly taken in the Winter War and there is enough early equipment in the photo (Tsarist pouches, bayonet scabbard &c) to back that up.

Image

The point of it is that, clearly, the only dark piece of kit is their skatka being the Naval greatcoat and this at a time when there wouldn't have been any wartime exigencies.

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