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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 13:02 pm 
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They were issued it, its on the list of items they were given, ironicaly the tankers jacket isn't. I guess the crux of the matter is somewhere along the line supplies for womens kit for those ANC/WAC in the Med was in short supply.

There is a fantastic story on the Vets association of one woman, whose biggest gripe (one of those that was in the 95th whose tent was bombed out) was the fact she had mens trousers as there were no female trousers available. Infact theres alsorts of little quirks like that when you read about the ladies perspectives of what they wore/were issued.

If you look the kit list they were originally issued there was a Jacket, Skirt and trousers all in Field wool. When they arrived in Northern Europe(UK) the M43 wasn't completed or trialed and the women were noted to be wearing M41's (I have one of these on the way already for my impression its just not arrived yet and I wanted a piccie :lol: ). At that time the idea of the Ike tunic arose from the similarities with the British BD tunic the ATS/WAAF's wore.

The M43 was dropped by the ETO/MTO ladies due to an order stating the "new style" would be issued as of Sept 1944 (that was the Ike that had been experimental to some extent at that point) to be worn with the wool trousers. The M-43 was on the same grounds, experimental, but used in the Med.

I think the oddest thing is there was NO stringent kit list for those that actually served ie, nothing is written as 'the ETO uniform'. The information I have is based on what was sent/issued and photographs (theres an American chap thats researched this quite intensively and I owe him a thanks for sharing the information). There are a few websites that note that there was a whole uniform in its own right worn by those ANC/WAC in a variety of locations over Europe, but that this isn't noted in either supply catalogues or through the stores issue lists.

The fact that certain parts of the uniform were not suitable for the English wet/cold climate, the heat of Africa etc meant the ETO/MTO uniforms were adapted instantly on field accounts for a lot of what some see as abnormalities as well as varients in what sometimes one lady wears to the next.

Its a mine field really, but theres some great nuggets of information available if you look and ask the right questions. There are also some great FPA from the ladies themself.

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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 13:05 pm 
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mitten31 wrote:
hey Dink.....they're very itchy aren't they and they have the BIGGEST gussett ever! it's quite off putting, there must be at aleast 10 inches of material there ha ha..!can't wait to wear it all

mitten
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Indeed there a novel shape, mine fit quite well thankfully (well my other half said they did, wondering now if I should trust that judgement...... :lol: )

The fabric resembles in my mind, of wearing trousers which have been made from scouring pads :lol: I am hoping mine will get slightly less itchy scratchy with time :? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 13:16 pm 
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Its a mine field really, but theres some great nuggets of information available if you look and ask the right questions. There are also some great FPA from the ladies themself.

I thought I was asking the right questions Dink and was asking to be steered in the right direction for confirmation that the M43 Jacket at Least was worn by ANC in Italy. I know the Tanker was and the 95th left Italy for Southern France in HBT Shirt and Trousers.

The pictures above confrm that both M43 and Tankers were worn in Normandy, thereafter countless pics come up of Female M43 being worn.

Still looking for a picture of ANC in M43 in Italy. Anyone out there got something to help the question along.

Regards

Lee

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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 13:21 pm 
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Wool Trousers if hand washed regularly and ironed can become quite comfortable to wear, nothing like wearing British Battledress.

LB

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 13:31 pm 
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You're not asking google the right questions then. There is one in my mind, that shows four ANC very clearly all wearing a right mishmash of things.

Surely if your ladies are going for the Sicily impression of the 91st, they were in the Med before those of the 95th/96th? Thus they came with kit already potentially issued from Africa/Tunisia? the uniform of those ladies again would be different to those landing in Italy.

As said a mine field, and you have to take each aspect as it arises.

Another thought for the Sicily/Italy side of things. If the 91st as I found had put back on its feet the University hospital of Palermo before being shipped back to the UK and then onto Normandy, it would if there is evidence for it to see perhaps the non field attire of the ANC (did any wear it in Sicily its not a part of the Med I've researched until I looked at information on the 91st). It would certainly be something different for your ladies to look into and if they did wear non field uniforms in the Uni hospital, well what a different display that would be for ANC, can't say I've seen that as yet in the UK and potentially accurate to boot.

Think I may have to investigate further, I know Katy has the seersucker trousers and shirt, and I've seen them (originals for sale) a few times on US ebay, wondering when worn now, having noted a post on the BB forum from the ladies in respect to the seersucker shirt potentially being worn in hot climates instead of the HBT (another minefield).

AS for BD stuff, theres a means for those as well, one of which is shaving, can't do that with the fine grade of wool for the US trousers. I have soda flakes to wash my original kit in (civi stuff) so shall at some point attempt a gentle hand clean of them.

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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 13:51 pm 
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You're not asking google the right questions then. Sure we are, but if not a link would help would it not, can you do that!

There is one in my mind, that shows four ANC very clearly all wearing a right mishmash of things. Including an M43 Jacket!

Surely if your ladies are going for the Sicily impression of the 91st, they were in the Med before those of the 95th/96th? Thus they came with kit already potentially issued from Africa/Tunisia? the uniform of those ladies again would be different to those landing in Italy. I dont think 91st was mentioned as an "Army Nurses" impression other than UK and Normandy, we are dealing with 95th in the MTO for the reason it was in both 5th and 7th Armies.

As said a mine field, and you have to take each aspect as it arises. So as this thread is here to help others, some links would be great.

Kind Regards

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 13:55 pm 
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I have soda flakes to wash my original kit in (civi stuff) so shall at some point attempt a gentle hand clean of them.

No need to be so gentle, the wools are quite hard wearing I have washed original many times and they just get better. Have orginal that has never been washed but worn many times in the field.

Regards

LB

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 13:59 pm 
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Being made to look stupid is not my forte and thus when it occurs you'll find I'm even less forth coming with information. The reply to the 91st was due to that being mentioned as you're ladies impression and that was what they had researched for the last year.

I don't have time to post a link right now, I'm waiting on a paddling pool filling for my 5 year old so he and action man can take a dip and I really should stop reading the forum and let him loose outside.

Oh and being gentle with something original is part of keeping it in tip top condition. My preference of soda flakes and handwashing, I appreciate everyone has their own means, but my method has so far not damaged or caused any problems so far with any other original items I have for other impressions.

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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 15:12 pm 
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Note I don't edit posts to add to them, I merely write a whole new one.

Pool still not filled (how much water can a 10ft take :shock: )

The M-43's were trialed in Anzio, the issue for this (despite true issue and endorsment being much later) was to the 3rd Inf Div. How did the women get it? same as the one that was issued male trousers.... MAGIC :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 15:27 pm 
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Hi Dink

Yep you are quite correct the 3rd Infantry did trial the M43 Kit

http://www.faaa.me.uk/Pitstone%202009.htm

But the question is, is going to be correct come Kelmarsh for the girls to be doing 95th Evac Hospital, 5th / 7th Army Italy wearing M43 Jackets! If they were issued then yes, if not then no.

Tankers you can not argue with, thanks to General Mark Clark.

Kind Regards

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 16:26 pm 
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Lee as said (I think I've said it now a few times) a mish mash. I'm not sure how many ladies you have? so you may need to work out from there, I note they do a uniform (as in same order) impression atm. But as you ask, by no means did they all wear M43's likewise they didn't all wear M41's, nor did they all wear tankers. That in itself is why its a minefield. There were no hard and fast rules, the women wore what they were issued (whether they liked it or not) and as they weren't all issued the same kit due to it also being issued to males, I certainly wouldn't advise dressing them all in a uniform fashion.

If you really want to go uniformed, that would be your choice, you could get the ladies to base their impression around the photo you posted? but my no means was that the norm, as there wasn't one.

As to General Mark Clark, I'm currently reading written copies of the uniform requirements as written in 1944 by Anna Wilson, Lt Colonel, GoC. Someone that wore the uniforms ;)

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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 16:53 pm 
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dink wrote:
Lee as said (I think I've said it now a few times) a mish mash. I'm not sure how many ladies you have? so you may need to work out from there, I note they do a uniform (as in same order) impression atm. But as you ask, by no means did they all wear M43's likewise they didn't all wear M41's, nor did they all wear tankers. That in itself is why its a minefield. There were no hard and fast rules, the women wore what they were issued (whether they liked it or not) and as they weren't all issued the same kit due to it also being issued to males, I certainly wouldn't advise dressing them all in a uniform fashion.

If you really want to go uniformed, that would be your choice, you could get the ladies to base their impression around the photo you posted? but my no means was that the norm, as there wasn't one.

As to General Mark Clark, I'm currently reading written copies of the uniform requirements as written in 1944 by Anna Wilson, Lt Colonel, GoC. Someone that wore the uniforms ;)


Girls of the Army Nurses certainly do not do Uniformed approuch at the moment although for the UK there is more of a uniformed look to the ANC, Unless on Field problems.

Image

The pictures of the Nurses in Normandy are very much the norm.

Although I would agree that Nurses in the MTO did wear a mish mash of kit, M43 Jackets do not seem to be in amoungst the kit worn, but I welcome photographic proof that I am wrong on that.

Regards

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 18:54 pm 
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I note from above photo they are not wearing M43 hats, beanies or hair nets, they are wearing side caps (worn as such) :wink:

From the photos I have, one sees all types of jackets, from M41 to Mackinaw...And owners of the book "And If I Perish" will note page 268 the wearing of what appears to be British BD...

One thing which strikingly throws itself out at one is the lack of uniformity once the ladies get into the field, which from proper photographic research on them and other units stands out out like a sore thumb to those who go by the kit list as issued and worn on the parade ground :)

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ohh look, they got dirty faces ... They say imitation is the best form of flattery ... Done it in 2002 with cries of "hey, did ye no wash yer face this morning"

Strange, they only post in my threads when it's controversial, seems they want to vent their spleens whilst claiming victimhood ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEwVpWFyy3M


"I don't use the pozi net ,because there are too many left wing oversensitive retards on there..."

"I reflect on the infamous 1987 photograph by American artist Andres Serrano that depicts a crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine. I remember all the leftists that jeered and mocked me, and many Christians like me, for being bruised by that photograph (the title of which I would rather not verbalize). They scoffed and told us to get a life. These are the same people today, unsurprisingly, who are stridently arguing for curtailment of free speech not to offend Muslims."


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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 19:15 pm 
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Hmmm rather miffed, I'm now deemed offensive. :shock: :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 19:18 pm 
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Your offensive my dear coz you don't agree, indeed, you question their authnticity, that's what get's up some peoples noses Dink...Don't matter, you know your right, and you've done your own research, not got some miopic dwarf to do it for you (and came out wi the wrong conclusions) :lol:

Opening up our unit thread...

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ohh look, they got dirty faces ... They say imitation is the best form of flattery ... Done it in 2002 with cries of "hey, did ye no wash yer face this morning"

Strange, they only post in my threads when it's controversial, seems they want to vent their spleens whilst claiming victimhood ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEwVpWFyy3M


"I don't use the pozi net ,because there are too many left wing oversensitive retards on there..."

"I reflect on the infamous 1987 photograph by American artist Andres Serrano that depicts a crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine. I remember all the leftists that jeered and mocked me, and many Christians like me, for being bruised by that photograph (the title of which I would rather not verbalize). They scoffed and told us to get a life. These are the same people today, unsurprisingly, who are stridently arguing for curtailment of free speech not to offend Muslims."


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 Post subject: Re: ETO/MTO ANC
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 19:20 pm 
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Meant to add, Mitten, I mentioned it elsewhere, but it got binned which is a pity coz it was helpfull, but I got a shirt that might fit you if you give me your sizes :wink: :D

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ohh look, they got dirty faces ... They say imitation is the best form of flattery ... Done it in 2002 with cries of "hey, did ye no wash yer face this morning"

Strange, they only post in my threads when it's controversial, seems they want to vent their spleens whilst claiming victimhood ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEwVpWFyy3M


"I don't use the pozi net ,because there are too many left wing oversensitive retards on there..."

"I reflect on the infamous 1987 photograph by American artist Andres Serrano that depicts a crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine. I remember all the leftists that jeered and mocked me, and many Christians like me, for being bruised by that photograph (the title of which I would rather not verbalize). They scoffed and told us to get a life. These are the same people today, unsurprisingly, who are stridently arguing for curtailment of free speech not to offend Muslims."


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