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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:57 am 
For your consideration. Its been suggested that morale boxes were unlikely to have been in the ETO until the time of December 44 or thereafter.

The photo below of 4th Infantry is captioned, "Near Jivigny-Le-Tertre in late July or early August 1944". It is featured in "the Roads to freedom" by La presse de la Manche D-Day 65th Anniversay edition. Middle of photo under the mess kit, is "hiding" a breakfast version of a morale box.......

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:54 am 
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Paul - I've previously seen the Morale Boxes too in the breakout timeframe photos from Normandy onwards. The "they never appeared until late 1944" stance isn't right. Good spot on this one!

Cheers,
Glen.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:00 am 
GlenM wrote:
Paul - I've previously seen the Morale Boxes too in the breakout timeframe photos from Normandy onwards. The "they never appeared until late 1944" stance isn't right. Good spot on this one!

Cheers,
Glen.


Cheers! Now all I need to do is find piccies of the dinner and supper menu morale boxes and I'm good to go!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:28 am 
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sorry for being dumb but what is a morale box?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 23:38 pm 
SSPanzerKing wrote:
sorry for being dumb but what is a morale box?



Its the "pretty" designed late war K Rations, Brown for breakfast, Green for dinner, Blue for supper (from memory!)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 20:05 pm 
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There's a debate going on in the US forum about this aswel, I'm VERY sceptical, ye see, it's this "I got a photo" thing, now, one can assume, and Paul, you got the "bible" and you know wot it says, but it's like the FSSF debate about helmet bands, there is a series of photos of them wearing them, with the C rat keys in them, so some people assume the FSSF all had them, guess wot, a series of photos of ONE plattoon (if that), on ONE afternoon by Bob Capa, and ye base yer impression on it... Ohh well, carry on...

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ohh look, they got dirty faces ... They say imitation is the best form of flattery ... Done it in 2002 with cries of "hey, did ye no wash yer face this morning"

Strange, they only post in my threads when it's controversial, seems they want to vent their spleens whilst claiming victimhood ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEwVpWFyy3M


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"I reflect on the infamous 1987 photograph by American artist Andres Serrano that depicts a crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine. I remember all the leftists that jeered and mocked me, and many Christians like me, for being bruised by that photograph (the title of which I would rather not verbalize). They scoffed and told us to get a life. These are the same people today, unsurprisingly, who are stridently arguing for curtailment of free speech not to offend Muslims."


Last edited by SaddleTramp on Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 22:19 pm 
SaddleTramp wrote:
There's a debate going on in the US forum about this aswel, I'm VERY sceptical, ye see, it's this "I got a photo" thing, now, one can assume, and Paul, you got the "bible" and you know wot it says, but it's like the FSSF debate about helmet bands, there is a series of photos of them wearing them, with the C rat keys in them, so some people assume the FSSF all had them, guess wot, a series of photos of ONE platton (if that), on ONE afternoon by Bob Capa, and ye base yer impression on it... Ohh well, carry on...


Good observation!

What is good for one squad is not good for another. For this particular example it may well have been that some sqauds of 4th infantry in the summer of 44 had access to morale boxes, others may have not.

Later in '45, one regiment of the 83rd infantry had a "thing" about putting names on helmet pots, but study suggests not all regiments of the 83rd did the same!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 13:17 pm 
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Guys,

Analogizing helmet bands and helmet painting to ration distribution is like comparing apples to oranges. It is like trying to make this a "Well its ok for a 4th ID impression in August 1944- BUT NOT ANYONE ELSE UNTIL 1945" issue. We aren't talking about helmet painting, jump suit reinforcing, or arm flag placement. Do you really think some squads had access to these while other squads presumably in the same platoon/company/battalion/division did not?

Rations were consumed in the 100,000s each day (maybe millions?). This isn't like one division getting the newest weapon variants or uniforms, which may have been distributed with some distinct purpose, these rations were consumed in massive quantities everyday and supply needed to keep up with that demand. I doubt the QM was stacking rations in piles during the summer of 1944 with all the morale rations going to the 4th ID and everyone else getting the older style. Also, this isn't a case of, "Let's have 1st squad, B Co., 8th IR try out these new rations before anyone else in NW Europe gets them- oh and get a guy from the signal corps over there to photograph it!"

Morale rations have shown in up pictures far earlier than anyone had anticipated, and I for one think it's a good thing. Really what is the issue here? All those guys who have been using these boxes in the pre-April 1945 impressions who you all thought were farbs suddenly aren't?

I'm glad here at least no one is doubting the actual date of the photograph.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 17:10 pm 
flyboy1592 wrote:
Guys,

Analogizing helmet bands and helmet painting to ration distribution is like comparing apples to oranges. It is like trying to make this a "Well its ok for a 4th ID impression in August 1944- BUT NOT ANYONE ELSE UNTIL 1945" issue. We aren't talking about helmet painting, jump suit reinforcing, or arm flag placement. Do you really think some squads had access to these while other squads presumably in the same platoon/company/battalion/division did not?

Rations were consumed in the 100,000s each day (maybe millions?). This isn't like one division getting the newest weapon variants or uniforms, which may have been distributed with some distinct purpose, these rations were consumed in massive quantities everyday and supply needed to keep up with that demand. I doubt the QM was stacking rations in piles during the summer of 1944 with all the morale rations going to the 4th ID and everyone else getting the older style. Also, this isn't a case of, "Let's have 1st squad, B Co., 8th IR try out these new rations before anyone else in NW Europe gets them- oh and get a guy from the signal corps over there to photograph it!"

Morale rations have shown in up pictures far earlier than anyone had anticipated, and I for one think it's a good thing. Really what is the issue here? All those guys who have been using these boxes in the pre-April 1945 impressions who you all thought were farbs suddenly aren't?

I'm glad here at least no one is doubting the actual date of the photograph.



For the sake of argument and healthy debate, post up the pictures of morale boxes used in an earlier time frames; educate and inform us.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 17:27 pm 
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Paul,

You have misunderstood that statement. The reference to "earlier than anyone had anticipated" doesn't mean that I am sitting on pictures of them in use prior to July 1944, though now seeing this picture I wouldn't be surprised at all if they popped up later. It was a reference to the prevailing opinion that morale boxes saw little if any use during the war. This quote from Saddletramp on the thread on the USMF forum sums it up nicely:
Quote:
I've heard about them famous photos, or photo, some guy mentioned a few years ago he had one of GIs in Bastogne, but have yet to see them/it... Ye will though, see plenty of plain boxes, people forget they produced millions a month, in fact, (and i'm going by memory here) they peaked at 24million one month (October 1943?), they had so much "combat" rations, that they stored them in huge freezer compartments, and where still issued after the War... The QMC historical studies mentions that "In May 1944 it was said that the new package was going into full production" etc..

Now don't tell me a manufacturer who has in stock, waiting to package the product, in this case millions of K rations, that the new one is now ordered and he has to print out millions of new ones and discard the old ones, ever seen the Gong Show? You got it, they used up all the old stock first, and that includes the times when the new one came along, eventually came along...

Now, if ye want to crowbar into your WWII impression some nice shiney and dead fashionable "moral" K ration boxes, go ahead, ye'll look fantastic!!
EDIT, I'm gonna wear some dark green OD webbing on my North African Campaign set up and no one can say anything, coz I've got a photo...


By the way that "famous Bastogne" picture was posted on that thread, along with many others with war dated captions. I am sure you have seen all these pictures before because you are an regular poster on that forum, but here is the link again. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114657&st=20

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 17:38 pm 
flyboy1592 wrote:
Paul,

You have misunderstood that statement. The reference to "earlier than anyone had anticipated" doesn't mean that I am sitting on pictures of them in use prior to July 1944, though now seeing this picture I wouldn't be surprised at all if they popped up later. It was a reference to the prevailing opinion that morale boxes saw little if any use during the war. This quote from Saddletramp on the thread on the USMF forum sums it up nicely:
Quote:
I've heard about them famous photos, or photo, some guy mentioned a few years ago he had one of GIs in Bastogne, but have yet to see them/it... Ye will though, see plenty of plain boxes, people forget they produced millions a month, in fact, (and i'm going by memory here) they peaked at 24million one month (October 1943?), they had so much "combat" rations, that they stored them in huge freezer compartments, and where still issued after the War... The QMC historical studies mentions that "In May 1944 it was said that the new package was going into full production" etc..

Now don't tell me a manufacturer who has in stock, waiting to package the product, in this case millions of K rations, that the new one is now ordered and he has to print out millions of new ones and discard the old ones, ever seen the Gong Show? You got it, they used up all the old stock first, and that includes the times when the new one came along, eventually came along...

Now, if ye want to crowbar into your WWII impression some nice shiney and dead fashionable "moral" K ration boxes, go ahead, ye'll look fantastic!!
EDIT, I'm gonna wear some dark green OD webbing on my North African Campaign set up and no one can say anything, coz I've got a photo...


By the way that "famous Bastogne" picture was posted on that thread, along with many others with war dated captions. I am sure you have seen all these pictures before because you are an regular poster on that forum, but here is the link again. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114657&st=20


I dont subscribe to the same suggested notion as Saddletramp, if I see photographic evidence of their use by a particular unit, at particular time and place it sits better with me, rather than just thinking they must have had them. I've got plenty of plain K rats aswell as Morale so it doesnt cause me difficulty what I display with- just want to get it right.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 0:59 am 
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More pictures, including a the original caption for the 4th ID picture. Also in the 101st Bastogne shot you can see there is another morale box in the uncropped photo. One trooper has ripped it up and was using it to cover the action of his rifle.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46429&hl=k+ration

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 19:28 pm 
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I always tend to quote best information available at this time.Issue regulations and what actually happens are two different animals completely.Most oddities are caused by human effor.I.E. somebody new to the job loads a crate out of stock rotation and something odd appears in one photo when thousands say the opposite.Bit like saying all US paratroopers had extra pockets sewn on the sleeves of the Jump Jacket. Rather than waste time arguing about abnormalities ,do as Paul did bring it to everybody's attention and keep looking for further evidence as to how widespread the incident in question was.
Photographs can be misleading as location is frequently misquoted just find a piccy from the archives and stick it in the book, a lot of this is done by people who are just doing a job and have no real interest other than payday. They don't care about us Stitch- Counters who study every detail.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 13:37 pm 
Latest intel in. "Morale" Boxes featured in Yank Weekly dated 21st April 1944.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:58 am 
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I think Merril's Marauders would 've settled for any K-rats in volume,Morale or Plain,they were existing on one box per man per day.

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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 17:43 pm 
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flyboy1592 wrote:
Paul,

You have misunderstood that statement. The reference to "earlier than anyone had anticipated" doesn't mean that I am sitting on pictures of them in use prior to July 1944, though now seeing this picture I wouldn't be surprised at all if they popped up later. It was a reference to the prevailing opinion that morale boxes saw little if any use during the war. This quote from Saddletramp on the thread on the USMF forum sums it up nicely:
Quote:
I've heard about them famous photos, or photo, some guy mentioned a few years ago he had one of GIs in Bastogne, but have yet to see them/it... Ye will though, see plenty of plain boxes, people forget they produced millions a month, in fact, (and i'm going by memory here) they peaked at 24million one month (October 1943?), they had so much "combat" rations, that they stored them in huge freezer compartments, and where still issued after the War... The QMC historical studies mentions that "In May 1944 it was said that the new package was going into full production" etc..

Now don't tell me a manufacturer who has in stock, waiting to package the product, in this case millions of K rations, that the new one is now ordered and he has to print out millions of new ones and discard the old ones, ever seen the Gong Show? You got it, they used up all the old stock first, and that includes the times when the new one came along, eventually came along...

Now, if ye want to crowbar into your WWII impression some nice shiney and dead fashionable "moral" K ration boxes, go ahead, ye'll look fantastic!!
EDIT, I'm gonna wear some dark green OD webbing on my North African Campaign set up and no one can say anything, coz I've got a photo...


By the way that "famous Bastogne" picture was posted on that thread, along with many others with war dated captions. I am sure you have seen all these pictures before because you are an regular poster on that forum, but here is the link again. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114657&st=20


How did this thread pass me by?

You said:
"Analogizing helmet bands and helmet painting to ration distribution is like comparing apples to oranges. It is like trying to make this a "Well its ok for a 4th ID impression in August 1944- BUT NOT ANYONE ELSE UNTIL 1945" issue. We aren't talking about helmet painting, jump suit reinforcing, or arm flag placement. Do you really think some squads had access to these while other squads presumably in the same platoon/company/battalion/division did not? "

There's been a few debates recently about the "generic impresion", in the case of how many gucci boxers where there, who knows, funny how one picks one item to show it's true, but misses out the other, or even asks why, here's from yer own photo, note the plain box next to two fancy boxes, ever wonder why?

Image

_________________
ohh look, they got dirty faces ... They say imitation is the best form of flattery ... Done it in 2002 with cries of "hey, did ye no wash yer face this morning"

Strange, they only post in my threads when it's controversial, seems they want to vent their spleens whilst claiming victimhood ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEwVpWFyy3M


"I don't use the pozi net ,because there are too many left wing oversensitive retards on there..."

"I reflect on the infamous 1987 photograph by American artist Andres Serrano that depicts a crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine. I remember all the leftists that jeered and mocked me, and many Christians like me, for being bruised by that photograph (the title of which I would rather not verbalize). They scoffed and told us to get a life. These are the same people today, unsurprisingly, who are stridently arguing for curtailment of free speech not to offend Muslims."


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