WWIIReenacting.co.uk Forums

Uniting UK Re-enactors since 2003
 

It is currently Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:08 am

Support the Forum
END OF YEAR OFFER - HALF PRICE SUPPORTER MEMBERSHIPS - CLICK THE BANNER TO READ MORE AND SUPPORT THE FORUM

Username



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 692 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 44  Next
Author Message
Offline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 16:37 pm 
1000+ Poster
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 19:02 pm
Posts: 1722
In the March 1944 edition of Infantry Training (Sections & Platoons, etc) there's some graphics headed 'Prepare for Battle'. The narrative includes the requirement to apply "Dark Blanco No1A or 3" to webbing equipment.

There's countless threads regarding the elusive KG03 but what was 1A? Haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere before. Can anyone offer an insight?


Last edited by woodlander on Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 

Support the Forum
END OF YEAR OFFER - HALF PRICE SUPPORTER MEMBERSHIPS - CLICK THE BANNER TO READ MORE AND SUPPORT THE FORUM

Username
Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:51 am 
1000+ Poster
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 19:02 pm
Posts: 1722
Hmmmm - 55 views and no replies: is this because it's a really bone question or because no one really knows? :D

Actually, I'm bumping this to the top again following chat on the Raincapes thread where I started to wonder about "accepted truths" versus "known facts". Mucho threads and discussion about Khaki Green No 3 being the Holy Grail of NWE blanco. Fair enough. But what then was the No 1 A mentioned in Infantry Training 1944????

As an aside, at Cafe Gondree there is a display case containing Richard Todd's D-Day Webbing (sadly, no photos allowed) which was the same colour as my webbing belt treated with the often-derided but in my experience very easily applied "waxy block".


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:07 am 
Forum Legend
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 13:36 pm
Posts: 25060
Location: Hartlepool, awaiting a Zulu charge, cuppa in hand
Real Name: Ian Hannant
Group: Unable to commit
Steve, TBH, I don't think anyone knows. Often, Training Pamphlets are written with a view to include the most modern of kit, in order to remain in use for longer. Sometimes, kit is dropped & Amendments are produced to reflect that.
Possibly, shade 1A was dropped & your pamphlet was not amended?
Or was the numbering system changed when the new formulation came in?
Just my thoughts.....

_________________
Lo, There Do I See My Father
Lo, There Do I See My Mother, My Sisters And My Brothers
Lo, There Do I See My People, Back To The Beginning
Lo, There Do They Call To Me, And Beg Me To Take My Place
In The Halls Of Valhalla, Where the Brave Shall Live Forever

In the chaos of battle, when the ground beneath your feet is a slurry of blood, puke, p**s and the entrails of friends and enemies alike, it's easy to turn to the gods for salvation. But it's soldiers who do the fighting, and soldiers who do the dying, and the gods never get their feet wet.

One enemy is never enough, two is far too many
"Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid."
Jo Hukam


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:24 am 
1000+ Poster
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 19:02 pm
Posts: 1722
Oggy wrote:
Steve, TBH, I don't think anyone knows. Often, Training Pamphlets are written with a view to include the most modern of kit, in order to remain in use for longer. Sometimes, kit is dropped & Amendments are produced to reflect that.
Possibly, shade 1A was dropped & your pamphlet was not amended?
Or was the numbering system changed when the new formulation came in?
Just my thoughts.....


Thanks Oggy, I always appreciate your thoughts.

Regarding your points:

- both 1A and 3 appear alongside each other in the orginal document which very much suggests they were different

- my copy of IT44 has been meticulously maintained with updates, corrections and insertions until at least 1950 (eg and as an aside for Cold War fans, a 1946 insertion changes tank-hunting from a specialism to a skill required of all soldiers) and yet the blanco entry is as was

- which leaves me with your first point as the 'biggy' open one, that the booklet included 'newer' kit which had either just come in or was about to come in issue

As I remarked on the raincapes thread, I find it fascinating that despite all the records and research, there still appear to be some pieces of kit that we know little about.

More thoughts anyone?


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:42 am 
Forum Legend
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 13:36 pm
Posts: 25060
Location: Hartlepool, awaiting a Zulu charge, cuppa in hand
Real Name: Ian Hannant
Group: Unable to commit
Cheers Steve.

Another one for you.... Your original post mentions 1A(dark) - presumably there's a 1(light)?. I'd lean towards a number restructuring to rationalise all the shades. After all, I have a tin of Quippy Renovator, shade Khaki 103, that is very close to unblancoed webbing.
About kit not being widely known about - often, things are lost, others substituted, specifications amended - and the changes, though addequately documented, are lost in the records.
It's no use asking a Squaddie - all he does is use the stuff - he's not interested in how it goes together!!!! (I was only interested in finding other patterns of issued kit, just to be different!!!!!)
Just my thoughts.

_________________
Lo, There Do I See My Father
Lo, There Do I See My Mother, My Sisters And My Brothers
Lo, There Do I See My People, Back To The Beginning
Lo, There Do They Call To Me, And Beg Me To Take My Place
In The Halls Of Valhalla, Where the Brave Shall Live Forever

In the chaos of battle, when the ground beneath your feet is a slurry of blood, puke, p**s and the entrails of friends and enemies alike, it's easy to turn to the gods for salvation. But it's soldiers who do the fighting, and soldiers who do the dying, and the gods never get their feet wet.

One enemy is never enough, two is far too many
"Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid."
Jo Hukam


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:50 am 
2000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:42 am
Posts: 2085
Location: leeds/yorkshire
this is interesting Steve and Ian,ever heard of British shade 64 yellow?

What is Blanco?

It was a compressed powder used to whiten or colour items of equipment. It looked a bit like thick toothpaste when water was added in the correct amount and it dried very white. Khaki colour was also available and later other colours including brown and olive drab were introduced. It was used on belts, webbing and lanyards and in some cases on gaiters or leggings.

British made Blanco in yellow khaki.

A block of un-used Blanco. Shade 64 yellow khaki with inner wrapper and outer instruction wrapper.



Blanco was originally issued in a tin, soldiers then bought replacement blocks in this paper wrapper to refill their tin.



On the back of the container it has "complies with official colour standard of DEPT. OF ARMY for the renovation of military webbing equipment".


British made Blanco An Australian alternative
"What happened next gave me an idea of what to expect in my next 6 weeks of training. I was shown how to put the Blanco on my kit by some lads who had already done 2 weeks training. This procedure involved wetting the block of Blanco until it became a paste on top, then with a brush or sponge, to cover the kit with it then wait for it to dry."

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-help/faq.htm#blanco

Image

Image

_________________
Once more onto the internet I go looking to use women and break up families. Thats what makes me a good actor and with my track record of past mistakes a very good reinactor of doing the same thing over and over again. I can't be a real person so I have to pretend to be someone else. Thank goodness for the internet without it I would be alone.


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:55 am 
2000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:42 am
Posts: 2085
Location: leeds/yorkshire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanco_(compound)

this shows some shades too

Image

_________________
Once more onto the internet I go looking to use women and break up families. Thats what makes me a good actor and with my track record of past mistakes a very good reinactor of doing the same thing over and over again. I can't be a real person so I have to pretend to be someone else. Thank goodness for the internet without it I would be alone.


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:05 am 
1000+ Poster
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 19:02 pm
Posts: 1722
Yes Oggy, the nomenclature of "1A" suggests that it's a derivative of "1" doesn't it.

And no Jon, hadn't heard of shade 64 before! Perhaps this thread should really focus on the 'colour chart' and provenance of known blanco's? I'll change the heading accordingly.

So here's a start:

__________________________________________


Number
Colour
Shade
Service of primary use
Theatre of operations
Composition
Primary source(s)

No 3
Khaki Green
Dark
Army
NWE 44/45
Circular compressed powder block
Infantry Training 1944

No 1 A
Unknown
Dark
Army
NWE 44/45
Unknown
Infantry Training 1944

______________________________________________________


Any takers to fill in the unknowns or to add other colours?


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:10 am 
2000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:42 am
Posts: 2085
Location: leeds/yorkshire
they all seem to be Joseph Pickering & Sons products Steve, i enquired to the company once as have others for info but all that informations gone now,shame.Be good to see what turns up,bet it wont be the blanco though :) ;)

Jon

_________________
Once more onto the internet I go looking to use women and break up families. Thats what makes me a good actor and with my track record of past mistakes a very good reinactor of doing the same thing over and over again. I can't be a real person so I have to pretend to be someone else. Thank goodness for the internet without it I would be alone.


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:18 am 
Forum Legend
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 13:36 pm
Posts: 25060
Location: Hartlepool, awaiting a Zulu charge, cuppa in hand
Real Name: Ian Hannant
Group: Unable to commit
Number Unknown
Colour Sunburn
Shade Unknown
Service Army
Theatre Desert
Compressed powder Block in tin
Visual - Spotted by me on a Desert display.....

_________________
Lo, There Do I See My Father
Lo, There Do I See My Mother, My Sisters And My Brothers
Lo, There Do I See My People, Back To The Beginning
Lo, There Do They Call To Me, And Beg Me To Take My Place
In The Halls Of Valhalla, Where the Brave Shall Live Forever

In the chaos of battle, when the ground beneath your feet is a slurry of blood, puke, p**s and the entrails of friends and enemies alike, it's easy to turn to the gods for salvation. But it's soldiers who do the fighting, and soldiers who do the dying, and the gods never get their feet wet.

One enemy is never enough, two is far too many
"Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid."
Jo Hukam


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:25 am 
2000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:42 am
Posts: 2085
Location: leeds/yorkshire
you reckon shade 64 must have been desert then ian?

_________________
Once more onto the internet I go looking to use women and break up families. Thats what makes me a good actor and with my track record of past mistakes a very good reinactor of doing the same thing over and over again. I can't be a real person so I have to pretend to be someone else. Thank goodness for the internet without it I would be alone.


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:39 am 
Forum Legend
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 13:36 pm
Posts: 25060
Location: Hartlepool, awaiting a Zulu charge, cuppa in hand
Real Name: Ian Hannant
Group: Unable to commit
That works Jon. I reckon that there was quite a few shades for Desert, since they are not all the same (perfect cam in a Desert is Pink BTW)

_________________
Lo, There Do I See My Father
Lo, There Do I See My Mother, My Sisters And My Brothers
Lo, There Do I See My People, Back To The Beginning
Lo, There Do They Call To Me, And Beg Me To Take My Place
In The Halls Of Valhalla, Where the Brave Shall Live Forever

In the chaos of battle, when the ground beneath your feet is a slurry of blood, puke, p**s and the entrails of friends and enemies alike, it's easy to turn to the gods for salvation. But it's soldiers who do the fighting, and soldiers who do the dying, and the gods never get their feet wet.

One enemy is never enough, two is far too many
"Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid."
Jo Hukam


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:51 am 
1000+ Poster
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 19:02 pm
Posts: 1722
Oggy wrote:
perfect cam in a Desert is Pink


Aha - as in the 'pink panther' jeeps/landies.

Blanco list updated with Oggy's contribution:

Number
Colour
Shade (light/medium/dark)
Service of primary use (Navy/Army/Airforce)
Theatre of operations
Composition
Primary reference source(s)


No 3
Khaki Green
Dark
Army
NWE 44/45
Circular compressed powder block
Literature - Infantry Training 1944 (Woodlander)

No 1 A
Unknown
Dark
Army
NWE 44/45
Unknown
Literature - Infantry Training 1944 (Woodlander)

Number Unknown
Sunburn
Light
Army
Desert
Compressed powder Block in tin
Visual - a Desert display (Oggy)


Last edited by woodlander on Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:17 pm 
2000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:42 am
Posts: 2085
Location: leeds/yorkshire
saw one of those LRDG "Pink Panthers" at the Beverley museum of Army transport,wonder what happened to all their collection when the museum closed.

_________________
Once more onto the internet I go looking to use women and break up families. Thats what makes me a good actor and with my track record of past mistakes a very good reinactor of doing the same thing over and over again. I can't be a real person so I have to pretend to be someone else. Thank goodness for the internet without it I would be alone.


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:30 pm 
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:05 am
Posts: 773
Location: Norfolk
Real Name: Paul McAllister
Group: 21 Army Group Provost Living History Society
I am told by a friend who is more knowledgeable on this kind of stuff than me that Pickerings made some 109 different colour/shade variations of Blanco. (Pickerings were the sole makers of blanco, though other firms might have produced web cleaner along similar lines).

As for the waxy blocks, my personal thoughts on this stuff are that no-one has yet produced a definitive source which states that it is definately post-war. This theory is expounded by often self-appointed "experts" without any basis of fact. There is evidence that new "waterproof blanco" was issued pre D-Day, what's to say that the much derided waxy block isn't that?

_________________
Paul McAllister
21st Army Group Provost Living History Society
Recreating the Corps of Military Police 1939-1945


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:39 pm 
1000+ Poster
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 19:02 pm
Posts: 1722
Redcapsarge wrote:
I am told by a friend who is more knowledgeable on this kind of stuff than me that Pickerings made some 109 different colour/shade variations of Blanco. (Pickerings were the sole makers of blanco, though other firms might have produced web cleaner along similar lines).

As for the waxy blocks, my personal thoughts on this stuff are that no-one has yet produced a definitive source which states that it is definately post-war. This theory is expounded by often self-appointed "experts" without any basis of fact. There is evidence that new "waterproof blanco" was issued pre D-Day, what's to say that the much derided waxy block isn't that?


Some 109 colour/shade variations: blimey,perhaps this thread is being a bit ambitious?!

Thanks for your thoughts Paul. More for us to mull over.

A question for anyone on powdered KG03: does it wash off in the rain (or whilst struggling through the sea)? Given webbing is made from cotton and cotton can rot when wet for an extended period, a waterproof blanco makes sense.


Top
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 692 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 44  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: