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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 19:10 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Hello all,
I have several questions about 2 new belts I have found. At first I did not know anything about them, but browsing around I got a little wiser. The first is what apears to be a "39 pattern leather belt" with 2 buckles at the rear. The second is exactly the same belt but without the 2 buckles.
My questions are as followes:
1. Without starting the whole home guard discusion again (as I read), WHO was actually issued these leather 39 pattern belts?
2. WHY did they come up, 2 years after the "37 pattern" webbing belt (that everybody used), with a near copy of that belt but in leather?
3. WHY does my second belt, which is exactly the same as the first, not have the buckles? Is the first for troops and the second for officers?
Thanks in advance for any claryfication.
Fox


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 13:39 pm 
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Must be tough questions. Nobody seems to have answers.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 14:11 pm 
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Is there anyone here to answer them ...??? .... still waiting for further input on a question of mine .... if its not on FB its maybe not worth considering perhaps ..??

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 16:21 pm 
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I think there's a picture of the Pioneer Corps (I think) all decked out in complete 39 pat kit.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 18:30 pm 
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A lot of information here.

http://www.karkeeweb.com/1939main.html


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 19:40 pm 
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My first port of call is always Karkeeweb too!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 19:44 pm 
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... however, it does not answer your query about the one without buckles at the rear. They haven't been removed later, Have they?, leaving stitch holes. Never seen one without the buckles!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 20:27 pm 
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Leather and brassware are exactly the same on both belts. No needle marks from removed buckles.
What I know now for sure is that belt 1 is definatly a 39 pattern leather belt and that this kind of leather kit was primarily issued for training purposes at the home front. (Please correct me if I am wrong).
Now for the second question. WHY was there need for a leather equivalent of the 37 pattern webbing? Was leather cheaper then webbing? Did the leather industry need a boost? It just does not make sence to me.
As for the 3rd question. I started with saying "leather and brassware are the same on both belts", well after having another good look that is not correct. I noticed the lack of adjusting holes on either side of the second belt. Examining the back of the second belt, traces of earlyer stitching is visuable. Could it be that the second belt is a modified Sam Brown fitted with 39 pattern buckles?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:18 am 
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39 Pattern equipment was manufactured to meet the demand of a growing army early in the war. Specialist looms and other equipment were required to manufacture webbing equipment which could not be replicated at short notice.

I would say that your belt started life as something else and it has been retrofitted with 39 pattern metal work by its owner.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 21:51 pm 
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The second belt may well be a Pattern 1914 with its rear buckles and straps removed and 'new' brass fitted. I have a P14 which has had that treatment which came in with a batch of P39 belts. You'd have to look at the remaining stitching marks to gauge if it is possibly P14. Missing holes is a bit of a mystery. P03?

My understanding is that P39 was issued to 'second line' units such as reserve and training but also to Polish units, in the early years, and in limited issues to Home Guard. A bit like P14 it was a stop gap measure to meet the demand; being relatively easy to cut and rivet leather copies of P08/P37 whilst manufacture of technically advanced web equipment was being expanded.

By the way anyone got a P39 pistol ammo pouch (not compass!) MkI complete with its 2" rear tab they want to sell? Last piece I need for my P39 collection (PM Me). Compass pouches seem to survive (with compasses) but b**gered if I can find a pistol ammo pouch!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 18:11 pm 
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Not really answering the question, but often brought up - Home Guard and '39 belts: see this picture, mostly 1903 belts, but one '39 in the middle:http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/liberator_2008/media/bWVkaWFJZDoyNDcxNjU1Mw==/?ref=


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:01 am 
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REME 245 wrote:
39 Pattern equipment was manufactured to meet the demand of a growing army early in the war. Specialist looms and other equipment were required to manufacture webbing equipment which could not be replicated at short notice.


^^^THIS is why 39 pattern equipment came along.

Same as 14 pattern (if you aren't familiar with 14 pattern, go have a look at it vs the 08 pattern and you will understand exactly what we are talking about here)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:42 am 
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39 webbing went out to equip the Anders Army when it was formed in the USSR.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:03 am 
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The belt without rear buckles started life as a Sam Browne and has been modified by/for someone, probably as work wear. Was very common for miners, farmers, workers etc.
As for the reason for the '39 kit, the answer is in the link you were given above to the Karkeeweb site.

NOTE the part about the buckles being the same as '37 buckles is guff. They were a smaller buckle to suit the leather belt. I've submitted proof of this to the site but it has yet to be altered.

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