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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 18:59 pm 
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Were the Home Guard who used the .3006 P17 rifles supplied American made .3006 Ammo or British made K .3006 ammo or both a mixture.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:19 am 
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I have some Canadian marked .3006 drill rounds. Quite where they were made I do not know.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Hi ... I received this back after an enquiry at WR28 group.
I cant attach the info referred to below as it is in a Word doc, however I have copied and pasted it.

As far as I can find out the HG were issued with mainly P17 rifles initially and both US and British 30-06 ammunition. This depended on supplies sent from the US and not being sunk. Britain also manufactured the 30-06 ammunition. The 30-06 ammunition was also used in the Browning machine gun (similar to a Vickers) and the BAR. As the war improved the P17's were returned to central supplies and the HG were issued with .303 rifles. After the war almost all of the P17s were dumped at sea.
Attached is some info on the British head stamps for 30-06 ammunition and further info.


BRITISH 30-06 AMMUNITION

England commenced making .30-06 ammunition around 1918 and continued doing so until 1980. In addition the UK also used an incredible amount of .30-06 ammunition supplied by the USA during WWII. The ammunition made by the UK was marked in accordance with their normal practices.


Ammunition companies that made .30-06 ammunition
Greenwood and Batley Ltd, Yorkshire.
This company made some .30-06 ammunition in 1918.
Kynoch Ltd, Birmingham.
This company made .30-06 ammunition from 1918 to c1968
Some aluminium cases were made by this company around 1940
Most Kynoch .30-06 primers were not crimped in place.
This company made AP cartridges possibly between 1954 and 1960.
This company made API cartridges possibly between 1959 and 1960.
This company made blanks from 1950 to 1960 or thereabouts with a rose crimp
This company made grenade launching blanks for the Danish army in 1951.
They also made an incredible number of drill cartridges.
Their proof cartridges were marked with either the normal copper washed case or with a
coloured stripe across the base.
They also made ballistic standard cartridges.
Tracers were made around 1946
Ministry of supply Hirwaun, South Wales.
For all intents and purposes this company didn’t make much .30-06 ammunition except for one
pilot lot of AP.
Parker Hale Ltd.
This company made many millions of drill cartridges.
Royal Laboratories, Woolwich Arsenal. London.
This concern made .30-06 AP ammunition in 1918
Royal Ordnance factory Radway Green. Cheshire.
This company made .30-06 ball cartridges from 1958 until 1966.
It also made some drill cartridges of the Mk 5 variety
This company made ballistic standard cartridges in the years 1960 and 1965.
Also produced by this company were Mk Iz tracers beginning in 1959 and ending in 1966.
WW. Greener
This company experimented with duplex and triplex loads.
Much improvisation took place during WWII with .30-06 cases.
Unusually for the UK they marked .30-06 projectile tips. The following is believed to be reasonably accurate.
Black = AP or experimental tracer
Blue = Incendiary
Brown = Experimental ball
Green = AP
Red = Tracer
Silver = API
White = experimental ball
Kynoch factory it is believed used many touches of paint on projectiles to indicate various experimental tracers.
.30-06 ammunition made for the UK by the USA is sometimes found with the designation .300Z. Ammunition
made by the USA for the UK was given designations suitable to the UK way of doing things.
Ball Mk 1z = the US M1 ball with the 172 grain projectile
Ball Mk IIz = the US M2 ball with the 150 grain projectile.
Ball Mk IIIz = this designated the British made M2 ball.
Ball Mk IVz = for some reason this designation was applied to the British made M2 also?
Ball Mk Vz = this was applied to the Belgian made Mk IVz.
Drill Mk 1 = applied to drill cartridges made in the UK from US cases.
Drill Mk 2 = applied to drill cartridges made in the UK from US cases
Drill Mk 3 = this designation was allocated to Indian Arsenals for use on their drill cartridges.
Drill Mk 4 = applied to drill cartridges made in the UK from US cases
Drill Mk 5 = applied to drill cartridges made in the UK from US cases
Incendiary B Mk 1z = applied to US made M1 incendiary cartridges.
Incendiary B Mk IIz =This was applied to UK made incendiaries.
Tracer Mk Iz = applied to British made tracers.
Tracer Mk IIz = applied to tracers made in Belgium.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Dumped at sea, made me cry. Thanks for the information by the way. i could do with one or two round of British made 30-06 rounds for the collection.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 17:26 pm 
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P17's removed from the HG? Thats the first I've ever heard of that I must say!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:42 am 
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I agree with your comment. .30-06 seems to have been in short supply at times and small numbers .303 Rifles were issued for target practice, but the photographic evidence does not support any suggestion that Lee Enfield's were in widespread use by the end of the war.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:00 am 
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Actually, ever since I turfed out a stand down weapons return for Tunbridge Wells Home Guard and discovered that they returned 9 No.4's I've wondered why they had them.

Maybe target practice is the reason...

On the other hand, maybe the comment isn't that P17's were replaced with No1's but P14's?

Again, Tunbridge Wells returned twenty something Browning MG's so definitely not all .3006 weapons were gone AND bearing in mind Kent Home Guard were frontline units...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:47 am 
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Don't shoot the messenger guys ... :) ... I will ask him for the source of the info he supplied ... one thing though, it didn't say ALL P17's were returned, more of a generalisation, and yes it would stand to reason that the more front line the HG groups were then the more likely it was they kept what weapons they had.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:27 am 
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From memory Wiltshire still had all its .30 weapons to the end. Would they have had sufficient P14's to equip the whole Home Guard.
From memory the only external difference is the hand groves in the stock missing on either the P14 or 17?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:46 am 
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I think its probably down to the usual Home Guard personal anecdote/history problem - the Home Guard wasn't a homogenous entity.

What happened in one part of the country, didn't in others.

As such, as I always say, if you want to portray something accurate, choose a time, choose a place and do some research.... other than that you are generalising something which was far from general!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:48 pm 
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I have a PDF file of a book .. 'Arming the British Home Guard 1939 - 1944'

its a thesis written in 2010-2011 by D M Clarke of Cranfield University and is very interesting, unfortunately I cant attach the PDF file, but if you look it up I'm sure you could find it, you may have it or be aware of it too, but chapter three and four are relevant as they detail the issue of rifles to the H.G.

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... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 16:19 pm 
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Someone has posted it in the past. You can view it from here. https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/handle/1826/6164


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 17:10 pm 
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Thought it may have been known about .. thanks .. all I have is a PDF of it which I cant seem to load as an attachment. Makes interesting reading although it doesn't mention specifics about ammunition relative to the question asked here.

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... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 17:36 pm 
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You still see a lot of P17s in the Stand Down parades, some SMLEs, can't' say i've noticed any No 4s, but there is a photo i've seen of some Sussex(?) HGs training with No. 4s complete with the spike bayonet scabbard held in a P39 frog.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 21:05 pm 
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I've not seen that PDF before - so thanks for sharing.

Should be a good read with my cuppa tomorrow morning :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 13:39 pm 
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Andrei Kozlov wrote:
P17's removed from the HG? Thats the first I've ever heard of that I must say!


In response Andrei I found this ..

By September 1943, the War Office had decided to reequip the Home Guard with .303” rifles (the No 4 Lee Enfield). The programme was to be carried out on a phased basis (in Eastern Command the exchange was anticipated to take place in 2 Corps District and Norfolk and Cambridge District in December 1943 but not until August 1944 in Eastern Central District). Although this may have pleased the Home Guard in at last achieving parity with the regular Army in terms of the rifles issued, the No 4 was likely to be inferior in performance to their exchanged P17’s; by this stage of the war, the need for mass production of No 4’s had resulted in manufacturing shortcuts and easing of quality standards. All .300 ammunition was to be retained for use with the Browning medium machine gun and the Browning light automatic rifle, which were to be kept in Home Guard use.

I have been told cant find a reference though, that the Thompson was taken away from the HG eventually too, this being due to short supply in as much as apparently a ship loaded with them and other munitions for the UK was sunk.

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'The Writing 69th'
8th USAAF
Somewhere in England

... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


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