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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 13:28 pm 
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the USA realised it would be far quicker and cheaper to merely adapt the Pattern 1914 Enfield design to the .30-06 rifle cartridge, a round for which it was well-suited. This was designated the 'United States Rifle, Calibre .30, Model of 1917' but is also known as the 'M1917 Enfield', or incorrectly as the 'Pattern 1917 Enfield', 'P1917' or 'P17'. The three factories turned out over 2,270,000 units (Winchester – 545,511; Remington – 545,541; Eddystone – 1,181,908).

I await further input with extreme interest ... :D[/quote]

It's not 'incorrectly titled': it may have been officially-titled 'M1917 Enfield' but I'm sure it was easier for HGs to unofficially say 'P17' in conversations than 'United States Rifle, Calibre .30, Model of 1917' or even 'M1917 Enfield'.


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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 16:37 pm 
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Unofficial does not automatically equate to correct ... 'incorrectly termed' simply means it was a misnomer, something done for convenience, as a previous poster said, having the (officially termed) P14, it was perhaps human nature that they would call the M1917 a 'P17' ...

The picture looks interesting, however it is very fuzzy, any chance of a clear copy please, it will make interesting reading, ... interesting, ... but not necessarily 'official' or 'correct' :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 16:39 pm 
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That's the only resolution I've got of it.

http://www.1940.co.uk/acatalog/Second-W ... sters.html

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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 17:16 pm 
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Thanks everyone, an interesting discussion. And that poster looks good - may have to buy it!


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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 17:19 pm 
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obt48 wrote:
Thanks everyone, an interesting discussion. And that poster looks good - may have to buy it!


Yes, it's a good poster.

It was one of a series in Modern World magazine, published in 1940/1941, that covered HG weapons and tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 21:34 pm 
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Hmmmmm .... Modern World magazine, published in 1940/1941, ...
.... soooo ... not exactly 'official' then ... and as we have seen, not (exactly) technically 'correct' either ..... !!

You know given the propensity for newspapers/magazines to, shall we say, manipulate facts, and given the date of the magazine, its just possible that this is where the appellation P17 came from ... whose knows or is to say ..??

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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:34 am 
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I'm just enjoying this totally retro experience of a thread of here being inoffensive and informative ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:50 am 
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Just a slight detour from the "American Rifle", I've just got hold of a left hand, pattern 39, unmodified pouch with the bit on the side for fitting to the belt to keep it in place, and have been told that these were issued in conjunction with the Thompson smg, but I can't quite see it, as the pouches will comfortably hold the 30 round magazines, (the 20 round ones are lost in it, and difficult to get out), I thought that the 20 round mags were the ones available at this time, not the 30 round ones, have I been sold a pup ?


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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 15:18 pm 
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I believe that pouch might have been used with the Thompson. Yes, 20rnd mags don't easily go into very much at all. Mind you, neither do the drum mags that you nearly always seen HG boys using in photos.

I think it was a problem that was never resolved because they took the Thompsons back really quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 16:25 pm 
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From what I understand the HG P39 pouches had the hooks cut off for use on the P03 belt. At first they were to be issued to BAR gunners. One P39 pouch, one brace, web loop, P03 belt. I'm away from my books at the moment so I can't check so see if there was an issue of P39 pouches for the Thompson. When the HG started to get STENs the P39 pouch was too shallow for the magazine so the pouches were modified by raising up the lid an inch. This leaves an empty rivet hole below the closing strap from having to move it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:40 am 
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Would the pouch have possibly been issued with a p39 belt ?, (I don't really want to cut it up), and I've seen a photo of a later Home Guard unit with Stens having a larger pouch (can't make out if it is the p39) on the left and a standard HG pouch on the right.


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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:57 am 
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Not the P39 belt heresy. I'm not sure we want to go there :-P

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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 13:01 pm 
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OK not the p39 belt, (sorry), I'll make a very discreet hole in the 03 belt to anchor the pouch, and have an ordinary HG pouch on the right hand side, would the bayonet have been kept ??, (it would still make a handy weapon for disembowelling nazi's)


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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 13:04 pm 
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or even getting magazines out from the pouch !!


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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:17 am 
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LOL, you know, I don't really know the answer to that.

I think bayonets were issued paired with a rifle, so its unlikely they would have had spares for anyone not carrying a rifle.

Certainly you don't (normally) see them with Stens (I say this because the Sten is more common photographically than the Tommy Gun)

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 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 21:31 pm 
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Re P39 pouches and the TSMG. There was an allowance of P39 pouches for TSMG users, and it was the same as for the BAR. It was one P39 pouch, one brace, one web slider. It is in the "Bible" and I think it is from early '42.

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