WWIIReenacting.co.uk Forums

Uniting UK Re-enactors since 2003
 

It is currently Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:54 am

Support the Forum
END OF YEAR OFFER - HALF PRICE SUPPORTER MEMBERSHIPS - CLICK THE BANNER TO READ MORE AND SUPPORT THE FORUM

Username



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 60 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 14:03 pm 
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 13:24 pm
Posts: 826
Location: Leicester, UK
Real Name: Austin J. Ruddy
Group: Leicestershire Home Guard Remembrance
Correspondent wrote:
Im told that in actuality there was no such thing as a 'P17.' There was a P14, at Cal.303, but the Cal.30.06 version was the U.S. Rifle Model M1917. Those were the ones with the red band which indicated Cal.30.06 only and were either Winchester, Remington or ERA manufacture.

Also for an early impression it would probably be the Canadian Ross M10 MkIII at Cal.303 that was issued .. (Canadian mfg. ball - these rifles didn't like British mfg. MkVII .303.ammunition.)


The term/designation 'P17' most certainly did exist during the war. I have an HG training poster from 1940 from the Modern World magazine that is titled 'The P17 rifle'.

Unfortunately, only in recent years, have clever-clever revisionists tried to assert that it was only called the M1917 and never the P17 during the war.

_________________
Comrades, show the cyberkids you Remember by signing up to the Facebook group: REMEMBER BRITAIN'S HOME GUARD


Top
 

Support the Forum
END OF YEAR OFFER - HALF PRICE SUPPORTER MEMBERSHIPS - CLICK THE BANNER TO READ MORE AND SUPPORT THE FORUM

Username
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 16:40 pm 
 Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:46 am
Posts: 12
Real Name: Ryan Corder
Group: Brixham Battery Heritage Group, 10th Devonshire HG
I have a book on the history of B Company of the Torbay Home Guard and it lists it's equipment for 1941 including: Lewis Guns, Vickers Guns, Browning Automatics, Thompson Sub Machine Guns, North over Projectors and "Bombs and Grenades of all types". So quite well equiped at that time. Also this book was published before the Home Guard stand down and refers to the M1917 as "P.17 Rifles (U.S.A)


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 16:53 pm 
3000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 15:27 pm
Posts: 3558
Location: West Yorks
Real Name: Allen
Group: Independant
[quote="LEI-12-HG"]


Unfortunately, only in recent years, have clever-clever revisionists tried to assert that it was only called the M1917 and never the P17 during the war.[/quote

Excuse me .. ?? I am far from that, I only quote what I have been told by a very knowledgeable gentleman who is a member of Haworth HG group and who had a relative serve in the original Haworth HG group .. I cannot prove or disprove it either way, but if you can, then please put up and let us all see .. sorry if that seems a bit short, but I am only replying in kind .. !!

_________________
War Correspondent
United Press
'The Writing 69th'
8th USAAF
Somewhere in England

... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 16:58 pm 
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 13:24 pm
Posts: 826
Location: Leicester, UK
Real Name: Austin J. Ruddy
Group: Leicestershire Home Guard Remembrance
Correspondent wrote:
LEI-12-HG wrote:


Unfortunately, only in recent years, have clever-clever revisionists tried to assert that it was only called the M1917 and never the P17 during the war.[/quote

Excuse me .. ?? I am far from that, I only quote what I have been told by a very knowledgeable gentleman who is a member of Haworth HG group and who had a relative serve in the original Haworth HG group .. I cannot prove or disprove it either way, but if you can, then please put up and let us all see .. sorry if that seems a bit short, but I am only replying in kind .. !!


Don't panic!

I wasn't calling you a 'clever-clever revisionist'! I'm saying in general, over the last few years, some posters on forums have been rewriting history to make themselves seem clever. You started your post with "I'm told that...", showing you were not passing it off as fact, but had been told.

Stand easy!

_________________
Comrades, show the cyberkids you Remember by signing up to the Facebook group: REMEMBER BRITAIN'S HOME GUARD


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 17:21 pm 
3000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 15:27 pm
Posts: 3558
Location: West Yorks
Real Name: Allen
Group: Independant
:D ... having a bit of bad hair day personalwise ... my apologies, a little touchy ...

I know what you mean about those that like to change things the way they want them to be ... perhaps should have clarified the 'Im told that' .. I would though like to see the poster if you can attach a pic, always willing to learn as I'm sure Patrick would be too ... !!

_________________
War Correspondent
United Press
'The Writing 69th'
8th USAAF
Somewhere in England

... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:58 am 
 Profile

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 23:13 pm
Posts: 57
I've discovered why their battledress was serge when they received their rifles,.......the film was shot in 1944, and the earlier phase was acted out, I guess that denim was a long forgotten memory by then,


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:04 pm 
 Profile

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 23:13 pm
Posts: 57
I can see the Americans referring to the "Rifle" as M1917, because that is what it was to them, but we already had the P14, and so it's cousin would be called the P17,......... well it makes sense to me anyway !!


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:13 pm 
3000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 15:27 pm
Posts: 3558
Location: West Yorks
Real Name: Allen
Group: Independant
It is a logical train of thought and that is probably what happened. The M17 was marked 'Model 1917' I believe, but was the P14 marked 'P14' ... ???

_________________
War Correspondent
United Press
'The Writing 69th'
8th USAAF
Somewhere in England

... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:23 pm 
3000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 15:27 pm
Posts: 3558
Location: West Yorks
Real Name: Allen
Group: Independant
Just to backtrack a few posts .. the Thornton HG film link only shows about 11 mins of what is actually an hour long film, to view it all there is a point made to contact the Yorks Film Archive.
Haworth HG have a link to it in as much as much of the training and locales shown in the film is in what was WR28 Haworth HG area, also Haworth HG (and friends of haworth HG) have copyright permission to use the film which is strictly restricted to them.
They do have copies for sale with the money going to Manorlands hospice Charity.

Incidentally on reading the 'blurb' that accompanies the short clip, it makes mention of a flamethrower ?? .. who would have thought that the HG, or some units of it, would have been issued those ..??

_________________
War Correspondent
United Press
'The Writing 69th'
8th USAAF
Somewhere in England

... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:24 pm 
4000+ Poster
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:18 am
Posts: 4076
Location: Kent
Real Name: Andy
Group: Za Oberonyu! 13th GRD and WPFG
I can't find the document i was looking for from Tunbridge Wells, but I did find that they returned TWENTY machine guns in April 1944. That's quite a lot of machine guns, but they still had more because the rest were returned in September 1944 - the same dated document lists battalion strength as 1200 men.

They also say 14 spigot mortars were returned in September 1944, but on the same week as they were handing these back they also dismantled their Fougasses (thats the flamethrower mentioned above almost certainly) but had one last bang with anti-tank rifles in a quarry. Those will be the anti-tank rifles the Home Guard never had of course.

It makes for some weird old reading.

_________________
"I saw cities in Europe that were practically untouched by the war, countries that capitulated to the more powerful enemies even before war was declared, but we are not like that. Our grandfathers, our fathers, our older generation, our great leaders, fought here for each building, for each street." - First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on the 70th anniversary of victory at Stalingrad


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 18:10 pm 
 Profile

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:24 pm
Posts: 732
Real Name: Owen Thompson
Group: Civil Defenders
Last summer at a reenactment event, as a Home Guard wearing denim, I was admonished by a "para" for carrying a SMLE. I told him that we did have them - until they were taken off us by the army as they left so many of theirs at Dunkirk! - and replaced by P14s and P17s. Was I right?


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 18:31 pm 
1000+ Poster
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 19:17 pm
Posts: 1037
From 'Home Guard A Handbook', and 'The Home Guard pocket manual'
both 1941

Image

Image


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 19:03 pm 
3000+ Poster
User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 15:27 pm
Posts: 3558
Location: West Yorks
Real Name: Allen
Group: Independant
What I like about re-enactment, any period but mostly those where there is evidential documentation and pictures, is that it is something of a revolving door perhaps when and where information flows in and out, you add that to curiosity and a subject can widen massively .. I found this ..

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/we ... m1917.html

What is interesting is that if you read down enough, you come across this ...

the USA realised it would be far quicker and cheaper to merely adapt the Pattern 1914 Enfield design to the .30-06 rifle cartridge, a round for which it was well-suited. This was designated the 'United States Rifle, Calibre .30, Model of 1917' but is also known as the 'M1917 Enfield', or incorrectly as the 'Pattern 1917 Enfield', 'P1917' or 'P17'. The three factories turned out over 2,270,000 units (Winchester – 545,511; Remington – 545,541; Eddystone – 1,181,908).

I await further input with extreme interest ... :D

_________________
War Correspondent
United Press
'The Writing 69th'
8th USAAF
Somewhere in England

... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 19:52 pm 
1000+ Poster
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 19:17 pm
Posts: 1037
And further
The Home Guard Trainig manual 1942

Home Guard instruction leaflet 16, 1940, sighting, zeroing & aiming for rifles


Image
Image


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 20:11 pm 
 Profile

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:24 pm
Posts: 732
Real Name: Owen Thompson
Group: Civil Defenders
Thanks for that, Nathan, seems like I was right with my rebuff!


Top
 

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Equipment 1941
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:00 am 
4000+ Poster
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:18 am
Posts: 4076
Location: Kent
Real Name: Andy
Group: Za Oberonyu! 13th GRD and WPFG
I still think as "generic Home Guard" you can justify pretty much any of the various rifles but just not the extremes - ie a No.4 or P17 in early 1940. I noticed Tunbridge Wells did return some No.4's (which it listed specifically, whereas the others were "rifles").

There's still no wrong answer and whilst those books are interesting, they are from one place. Keep saying it, do your local research - its the only way to be authentic!

_________________
"I saw cities in Europe that were practically untouched by the war, countries that capitulated to the more powerful enemies even before war was declared, but we are not like that. Our grandfathers, our fathers, our older generation, our great leaders, fought here for each building, for each street." - First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on the 70th anniversary of victory at Stalingrad


Top
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 60 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: