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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 13:40 pm 
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How would collectors cope? Serious and important question.

Form a National Deactivated Weapons Owners Club, Simples!

AFRA can make a fortune here :lol:

Personally I would not want just collectors in a Our living History group, but group members could certainly be a Deactivated Weapons club member and when they leave the Living History Hobby they can remain collectors and use the second of their membership cards to continue ownership.

Is it really that simple!

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST! :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 16:27 pm 
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Not really. :D

Read it here first but it was a part of discussions over the weekend. I'm sure others are thinking along the same lines too.
The actual options are limited, it is natural for people to cover the same ground.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 16:59 pm 
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This group started up last year, run by a trader, Arundel Militaria http://www.de-ac.co.uk/


Perhaps you could contact them and look at working together with them.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 18:06 pm 
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Presscorps wrote:
This group started up last year, run by a trader, Arundel Militaria http://www.de-ac.co.uk/


Perhaps you could contact them and look at working together with them.


Thats what is needed.

Have joined, cost nothing and will advise my troops to join also.

I will be suggesting an ID card to prove membership.

Well done Arundel Militaria

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Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 20:54 pm 
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Whatever outcome they choose, the point should be raised that the immense costs in time, effort and money involved in introducing any of the proposed measures to stop deacts being used by criminals, would be used to far better effect in the prevention and detection of crime. While one crime involving a deact is more than any of us would want to see, the fact that only five were recorded last year begs the question - is it worth the effort

Considering the time that would be needed to run licensing, or CRB checks, or restricting sales to registered dealers, and the money that would be spent on conversion to "current" standards, licensing etc, surely all of this would be taking valuable resources (Officers' time and public money) away from where they are needed?

A combination of "further contol methods" could be employed so as not to restrict the activities of law abiding citizens. I do fear however that once again the easy option will be to target the "law abiding citizens" for instant success and easy news headlines for the Government, while the people who really should be targetted are left virtually unaffected.

I hope I am wrong and that a common sense approach is taken.

Ashley

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 0:03 am 
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I'm not sure the "collector's club" will wash actually.

If you look at the VCRA, what you have there is a clear definition of reasons for owning a RIF as a means to an end - museums, training, theatre, reenactment and, in the end, airsoft skirmishing. What you don't have under the VCRA is ownership without a cause.

Many people also collected RIF's, they have lost out already, I can't see deacs being any different.

The pattern is there, I expect it will follow that pattern.

Remember what they won't do is to ban the current owners from keeping their collections, but they would ban them from transfering them to anyone else not exempt in a similar way to the exisiting VCRA.

Probably what is worth doing right now is to fish out the previous VCRA discussion minutes regarding deacts. There were reasons why these were not included as RIF's... and it wasn't because they were dangerous! I'm rather busy here, so don't have time to dig it out... but its worth looking at.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 0:36 am 
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I'm not sure the "collector's club" will wash actually. Can but try

If you look at the VCRA, what you have there is a clear definition of reasons for owning a RIF as a means to an end - museums, training, theatre, reenactment and, in the end, airsoft skirmishing. What you don't have under the VCRA is ownership without a cause. If the first option to include Deactivated weapons in the RIF ban is read in full you will see that it is taken into account that provisions for collectors would have to be put in to place. In other words the RIF option would have to be amended to include collecting as a reason for ownership.

Many people also collected RIF's, they have lost out already, I can't see deacs being any different. What happened to all those RIF's previously owned legally before the ban, after the ban!

The pattern is there, I expect it will follow that pattern. Thought there was a pattern last time, but did not go the way i expected it to!

Remember what they won't do is to ban the current owners from keeping their collections, but they would ban them from transfering them to anyone else not exempt in a similar way to the exisiting VCRA. Very difficult in prove anything is transfered, either sold or given to anyone if not licenced. I dont think a single Deactivated weapon can be traced to any single individual can it.

I am sure we are not the only group that sees deacts move around the group and to outside the group too, with others coming in

Probably what is worth doing right now is to fish out the previous VCRA discussion minutes regarding deacts. There were reasons why these were not included as RIF's... and it wasn't because they were dangerous! I'm rather busy here, so don't have time to dig it out... but its worth looking at. In the first suggested option as detailed on the consultation paper Dave Page has kindly linked to on the opening thread it states:

"There were also concerns about the effect on genuine collectors and the wish to preserve heritage"

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:22 am 
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The biggest problem is tho, to the people who actually act on this document, a Gun is a Gun, whether it's an Arquebus or an M16. We know that GUNS ARE EVIL in the eyes of the Politicians...
Soooooo, how do they reduce the amout of evil guns on the street, cheaply in both manpower and cost to the normal (ie those without de-acs, and voting) Public...
And there is the option they will plump for.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:20 am 
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Oggy wrote:
The biggest problem is tho, to the people who actually act on this document, a Gun is a Gun, whether it's an Arquebus or an M16. We know that GUNS ARE EVIL in the eyes of the Politicians...
Soooooo, how do they reduce the amout of evil guns on the street, cheaply in both manpower and cost to the normal (ie those without de-acs, and voting) Public...
And there is the option they will plump for.


You too can act on this document, have you, have the 4th Indians! get writing and join that Deact Club

Regards

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:50 am 
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I know it doesn't really help much, but here in NI pre-95 deacts are held on FAC.
The restrictions and requirements aren't as tight as for a live firearm obviously, but they are effectively treated as Class 1 regardless of the original classification of the weapon.

Post 95 are classed as paperweights.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:56 am 
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Gasx3 wrote:
I know it doesn't really help much, but here in NI pre-95 deacts are held on FAC.
The restrictions and requirements aren't as tight as for a live firearm obviously, but they are effectively treated as Class 1 regardless of the original classification of the weapon.

Post 95 are classed as paperweights.


How many on FAC do you know.

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 15:43 pm 
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FAAA wrote:

How many on FAC do you know.

Lee


Loads to be honest, Obviously anyone who had deacs previous to 95 had them on ticket and most of them have stayed, beyond that quite a few people like to have working actions etc. Where applicable. Tends to be more collectors than re-enactors though.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 17:23 pm 
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Gasx3 wrote:
FAAA wrote:

How many on FAC do you know.

Lee


Loads to be honest, Obviously anyone who had deacs previous to 95 had them on ticket and most of them have stayed, beyond that quite a few people like to have working actions etc. Where applicable. Tends to be more collectors than re-enactors though.


Do you know of any one who just has these on a FAC but has no firing weapons!

Regards

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 17:47 pm 
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Off hand I can only think of one 'private' person that has both, although I know a couple of folk in the firearm business too.

It's never been otherwise here so it's not seen as a big issue.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 19:13 pm 
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Deactivated Weapon collectors or future collectors may have to join their local gun club to continue collecting weapons of this sort. Just an idea.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:35 am 
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I to have read the consultation document and its limited circulation list. I then e-mailed a limited response pointing out NARES limited base in re-enacting and tht it was unfair that 1 group the sealed Knot got special tratment.
My full response went throught the options and their own figures. I also questioned the police ascertion that there is more de ac related crime than reported being taken as fact when it is suposition.
I also pointed out that do nothing option 6 isn't an option as the police and the anti gun lobby will just flood the media with propaganda to force the governments hand.
I sugested the Home Office and the police both need to go away do some proper reasearch into the problem and re-enactors and collectors and to try and get a better insight into what we are doing and why. Included in this was a sugestion that Ministers, Civil servants and senior police officers attend some events or arrange meetings at some of the larger events with us to hear our views.
I also sugested that if they want to register our deacs then they come forward with a comprimise like revoking 1995 specification in return for a registration system.

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