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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:11 am 
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Real Name: LEE BOWDEN
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Andrei Kozlov wrote:
But isn't that what its likely to effect anyway?

The pre/post 1995 deac spec is all about hand guns (revolvers particularly), smg's and assault rifles - ie the small handy things for gang bangers....

If they make you weld stuff up, it will be those.


M1 Rifle, M1 Carbine, BAR, BROWNINGS 30 AND 50, Not exactly small handy things Andy but just as unlikely to be used in any criminal activity! Where as a M1911 Colt Pistol may well be , but hundreads of these are around as RIFs, put a touch to those and they will melt!

Regards to all

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:16 am 
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Although Lee, the M1 and M1 carbine post-95 welded up because they are assault class weapons... the BAR, .30 and .50 are not welded up and nothing in this document suggests the threat is to anything but those items whose deac spec was changed post 95.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:26 am 
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Makes little difference to the fact these are not to my knowledge used in crime.

Regards

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:56 am 
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It would however be foolish to reject changes to laws around particular makes and models of a dangerous class of weapons (ie automatic weapons or handguns) simply on the basis of that particular model has never been used for a crime...

I'm sure I could list a big pile of eastern bloc weapons that have never shown up in any seizures, but at the same time you wouldn't want to see on the streets.

You can't leave loopholes, you have to close the door fully because people are clever things and spot advantages very quickly...

The "support weapon" class is a different kettle of fish, these whilst being potentially even more lethal (ie belt fed machine guns) are not what a gangster really wants - see Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels for a movie reference ;-)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:43 pm 
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The thing that did change in 95 to machine guns was welded on barrels and flash hiders.

Pre-95 Machine Guns could be effected by any change to the law.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 13:11 pm 
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Andrei Kozlov wrote:
It would however be foolish to reject changes to laws around particular makes and models of a dangerous class of weapons (ie automatic weapons or handguns) simply on the basis of that particular model has never been used for a crime...

I'm sure I could list a big pile of eastern bloc weapons that have never shown up in any seizures, but at the same time you wouldn't want to see on the streets.

You can't leave loopholes, you have to close the door fully because people are clever things and spot advantages very quickly...

The "support weapon" class is a different kettle of fish, these whilst being potentially even more lethal (ie belt fed machine guns) are not what a gangster really wants - see Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels for a movie reference ;-)



I am beginning to wonder where your support lies here and I go back to my argument that we should be supporting the hobby and not looking at what class of Deact your own fall into, i.e. Early or Late deacts.

M1 Rifle and Carbine are of course self loading and not Automatic weapons, M1 TSMG and M3 are of course Automatic, where do you see these fitting in. Of course Pre and Post deacts are neither, they no longer work!.

LB

PS, I am sure most will pick up on the post, but can someone explain to me why it would be too costly for the Gov to introduce a licence for our deacts, if as with all licences those applying are paying for it!

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 14:25 pm 
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The admin and policing costs of any licensing system always outweigh the charges for the license. You would not want to pay the actual cost for any self funding license.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 14:41 pm 
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FAAA wrote:
I am beginning to wonder where your support lies here and I go back to my argument that we should be supporting the hobby and not looking at what class of Deact your own fall into, i.e. Early or Late deacts.


Its quite apparent where I stand Lee, I stand where everyone has seen me stand before - in the pulpit trying to get people in our hobby to understand the issues at stake, the relevant legislation and the arguments surrounding the debate.

Without a properly informed support base we stand no chance, because we will be just laughed at by the powers that be as bunch of people who just fall back on "but its historic stuff thats really important". That argument is the weakest argument in our arsenal.

BTW, it wasn't me being devisive on this one... someone else in this thread was prepared to sacrifice "post WW2" weapons on the bonfire to save their own position.... and of course as you know, my own interests go waaaaay beyond 1945, as does my "investment" in items that play a part in reenactment of those historical events.

Our position must be this:

1) Answer the questions directly asked by the document as concisely and level headed as possible

2) Not place any lesser or greater importance of deactivated weapons by nation or time period

3) To educate those in our camp to enable them to complete the above two tasks and not let people get the idea that by pleading ignorance or disinterest will result in these issues not effecting them.

Andy

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 14:45 pm 
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Here here!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 15:17 pm 
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LeMaitre wrote:
The admin and policing costs of any licensing system always outweigh the charges for the license. You would not want to pay the actual cost for any self funding license.


An example please! Would this not be the same for other licences! Is there not already a licence for Fire arms and Shotguns. Would it not be possible for an exsisting licence to be extended to deactivated weapons. There is enough people already with both.

Explain "You would not want to pay the actual cost for any self funding license" if you would please

Kind Regards

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 15:38 pm 
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Clyde Barrow ( bonnie and clyde ) rather favoured the BAR so folly to suggest someone would NOT be interested in an old spec one for a criminal act ...

granted there would be other choices said "baddie" would go for first though but in the eyes of the GOV " if " ANY pre deact could be re-activated then reason enough for them to add them to the No longer allowed to have moving bits list .....

As has been mentioned here ...if you weld up all " modern " pistols pretty soon the mindless thugs would be using 1911A1s et all .

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 15:42 pm 
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There are existing license schemes and they do not fund themselves, they cost the government money to run. They want to avoid any cost. To fund a license you would need to cover all of the associated costs. Simple?
How much per hour for a police visit if deemed a requirement? How much per hour for Government office staff to corralate all the data? How much per hour for the IT people needed to maintain a data base? How much for the Post office staff to stamp your card or whatever. All costs that you would have to meet to have a self funding license.
It's not tricky to see the costs when you think about it is it?
It's a license too not a licence.

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"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 15:46 pm 
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Clyde Barrow ( bonnie and clyde ) rather favoured the BAR so folly to suggest someone would NOT be interested in an old spec one for a criminal act ...

Hang on!!!!!!bonnie and clyde were around when exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!and the BAR was in service when actually :roll:

LB

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 15:56 pm 
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LeMaitre wrote:
There are existing license schemes and they do not fund themselves, they cost the government money to run. They want to avoid any cost. To fund a license you would need to cover all of the associated costs. Simple?
How much per hour for a police visit if deemed a requirement? How much per hour for Government office staff to corralate all the data? How much per hour for the IT people needed to maintain a data base? How much for the Post office staff to stamp your card or whatever. All costs that you would have to meet to have a self funding license.
It's not tricky to see the costs when you think about it is it?
It's a license too not a licence.


So over to you sir, what do you suggest, first off as an individual re-enector and then as AFRA! I assume Government will be talking to you soon, even thought they seem to have missed you off the list of Organisations being consulted!

Kind Regards

Lee

PS Thank you for correcting my typo error.

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 16:01 pm 
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Bonnie & Clyde did use the M1919 BAR in 1930s. They were killed on the 23rd May 1934 but that is an irrelevant digression.

A licence system for deacts would need more resources, resources the police do not have. My local forces are looking to relocate the firearms section due to lack of space as it is. Like people are saying it would be a welcome move to licence deacts and I agree to an extent but the government/police are not looking for a solution that will cost them anything, they are looking at one that will cost US.

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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson, Quoting Cesare Beccaria. 1809

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 16:12 pm 
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I brought up Clyde barrow to counter the statement that Lee seemed to think that if its a "big gun" it is unlikely to be used in criminal activity ...I`d futher counter this argument by stating that I do actually know of a case where a 1928 Thompson was used in a particular crime ( quite recently although I cannot explain why I know this on an open forum )

My point to this is ANY deact is at risk at this government "great idea" so no-one ( and Im not refering to Lee ) can sit back and think "I only have ww2 long arms therefore the gov will probably leave me alone" attitude.

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