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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:06 am 
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Some commentary from Steven Kendrick of the DGCA:


"On April 8th, the new EU-wide deactivation standard comes into force and
applies to any deac "placed on the market", this technically means the deac
has to be updated to the new specification.

However this requirement hasn't been transposed into UK legislation, or any
EU member state's legislation for that matter, so there's no method of
enforcing it until they do.

Moreover, the new specification suffers from a number of serious flaws and
is basically unworkable for certain guns and even worse, even if you wanted
to update your deac to the new specification, it's not clear that it would
be technically feasible to apply it to an already deactivated firearm.

The good news is that the European Parliament has proposed a raft of
amendments to the proposed amendment to the Firearms Directive:

These do two things - the first is that they scrap all the stupid proposals
made by the European Commission in relation to deactivated firearms. The
requirement for museums to deactivate their collections of Category A
weapons would be removed. The requirement for deactivated Category A
weapons to be banned would also be removed. The requirement for other
categories of deactivated firearms to go under Category C (subject to
declaration - i.e. registration) would be gone.

The second thing the amendments do is unscramble the botched deactivation
regulations made under the existing Directive and better yet retroactively
allow for the recognition of older deactivation standards used by member
states, which means you wouldn't have to "update" your deacs to transfer
them. (However I think it's unlikely pre-89 deacs in the UK would be
recognised and the pre-95 standard might not be).

It's hard to say if all of the amendments will be approved but the Council
of Ministers appears to generally support them as well so I'm reasonably
sure they will happen. Certainly doesn't hurt to write to your MEPs and ask
them to support the amendments though.

So to summarise, from April 8th and for some months after, the whole
situation is going to be a total mess and hopefully it will then be sorted
out when the amendments to the Directive come into force.

The downside will be that the EU-wide deactivation standard is stricter; the
upside is that it is EU-wide, so that will make it next to impossible for
BIS and the Home Office to argue against imports into the UK. Or in fact
exports from the UK, the Proof Houses could well see an uptick in business!".


As alluded to above, I still remain confused about the legal situation with this. It's been introduced by an EU Regulation, which Wikipedia describes as:

"A regulation is a legal act of the European Union that becomes immediately enforceable as law in all member states simultaneously. Regulations can be distinguished from directives which, at least in principle, need to be transposed into national law. Regulations can be adopted by means of a variety of legislative procedures depending on their subject matter".

But as already discussed, there's no specific current UK law which mirrors the regulation and there probably won't be in the near future if it goes through as part of the Policing and Crime Bill.

So if I was to sell someone a non-EU spec deact to somebody after midnight tonight; what exactly could I be arrested for? What exactly could I be charged with? What exactly could I be prosecuted for? What exactly are the range of punishments available if convicted? Is there a specific criminal offence of infringing an EU Regulation?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:19 am 
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Try selling one and see what happens. I'm sure they would appreciate a test case going through the courts to help them work it all out.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:45 am 
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I agree with Steve Kendrick, however the likely timetable for the Directive amendment is looking like maybe late 2016 for it to be approved, then the directive itself needs to be signed off, then the amendment has a piece in it which says about taking time to consider which other standards might be acceptable - with no deadline set for it.

I can see this limbo situation being still in limbo well into 2017.

Its certainly not going to get resolved before most of the commercial traders in deacs have shut up shop and gone bankrupt.

The absolute BS bit here is the UK having jumped too soon - I know that they anticipated this all going through the EU for April, they didn't foresee the likelihood of spirited protest succeeding. The other EU states won't be having this problem, its just the UK.

Another example of if the UK actually bothered to work with the EU instead of trying to dis it, then we'd all be better off.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:23 am 
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That's constructive ruination, so for the HO to dictate that sales must stop on the 8th is Ultra Vires.

If the vital wording/technical elaboration is missing or not ready, then it's being used prematurely, as a false instrument.

Seeing as it's E.U.-related, U.K. courts have the power to overturn, or even strike down such manoeuvres .

E.U.- related legislation carries avenues of compensation.

It's also a trade matter, so this goes back into Vicky Ford's E.U. sphere of influence.

Why hasn't this gone through, as a Statutory Instrument, and why have we only found out about it, near the end of the Committee stage ? ( A statutory Instrument, E.U,. would require a mandatory Regulatory Impact Assessment, via Policy Committee.)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 14:25 pm 
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It could and should have been an SI variation, but instead its part of an Act... that hasn't been approve and which will require an SI.

I keep saying it, who actually had the most democratic process here - the EU or Westminster?

Some want to give Westminster more power.... more power to do what? Screw us over like this?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 15:16 pm 
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'
The choice of route through the legislature, and the wording, or in this case, LACK OF, sounds like civil servants/HO, ACPO's fingerprints also, trying to force through something, that the E.U. Parliament hasn't even finished drafting. I highly doubt that the 8th' deadline' and attendant 'penalties', would actually hold and that anyone dragged before a court, would find the case dropped, possibly, with the U.K. Bill/Act not-sure/half-way, struck down as Ultra Vires, beyond powers, and certainly not 'Reasonably Practicable'. A gross malfeasance, if it's allowed to continue.

Only the Commission could have dreamt this up, while still ignoring blank-fire expansion weapons, ONLY in the U.K. , would officialdom be rash enough, to dash off, with something half-baked like this. What's been created is an empty frame, without working parts, and by the sound of it, deliberately designed to kill off the trade slowly, hoping that nobody notices.

In this instance, I hope deac dealers sue the U.K. Government, for every penny, rightly so.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 15:59 pm 
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Whilst I agree that it looks unenforceable, who's going to volunteer to test that?

There's nothing the courts like more than a wise guy trying to end run the system....

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 16:14 pm 
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One of the larger associations, DWA ? It's intended to frighten the 'little guy', though a number of London lawyers have offred their services to the Brexit campaign. This just begs testing, and I'm sure someone or an organisation will challenge it. Rightly so.

If a case gets to court, remember, anything that's deemed to be Ultra Vires or unworkable/unreasonable in law, can be overturned, or struck down completely.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 17:26 pm 
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Well voluteered Justin.

Ill start the crowd surfing for your legal fees with 27p

at the moment... STFU and wait is the best advice

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 17:57 pm 
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I wasn't planning on becoming a sacrificial martyr, thanks all the same Andrew.

Large groups and Associations have previously taken on high-profile test cases. Poorly drafted law will succeed, where it's never tested. No 'Little Guy' is going to risk being a test-victim, which is what is intended. However, it's in the trade's wider interest, and liberty generally, that this is well and truly tested. Constructive ruination and the long-term death of the hobby and associated industry shall not pass.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 19:20 pm 
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It's being forced through, as Amendment 37 to the Police and Crime Bill.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 20:30 pm 
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which hasn't had a comittee reading yet

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 21:38 pm 
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Rifleman wrote:
which hasn't had a comittee reading yet


Which takes us back to taking action to convince the committee to review their proposed wording by doing this in the next 3 days....

GlenM wrote:
lordduvet wrote:
The Wording of the bill does nothing to prevent an underground market, the wording of the Regulation itself doesnt either. Sensible legislators should take this on board during the committee stages of the P&C bill - keep writing to the P&C committee members about how whilst we understand the need for a change to the law to stop bad people buying guns to kill people ..... the wording of the proposed amendment still needs a lot of thought.

This is the committee - they meet on the 12th - http://services.parliament.uk/bills/201 ... 01516.html

Chairs: Mr George Howarth, Mr David Nuttall

Clerks: Ben Williams and Marek Kubala

Membership:
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen)
James Berry (Kingston and Surbiton)
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands)
Lyn Brown (West Ham)
Maria Caulfield (Lewes)
James Cleverly (Braintree)
Mims Davies (Eastleigh)
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington)
Charlie Elphicke (Dover)
Carolyn Harris (Swansea East)
Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham)
Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase)
Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead)
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd)
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington)
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley)


Do this, people. The best you can do is to suggest to them to include the following:

(a) a permit/licence to obtain firearms deactivated to a previous specification

and

(b) inclusion of "or equivalent deactivation standards, as determined in revisions of the EU Technical Specification".

Re (a), feel free to use this wording below as back-up explanation in your request:

In order to prevent a "black-market" trade occuring, and also to allow the purchase of deactivated weapons that require specific versions of deactivation methods to be employed, legal avenues of purchase by suitable entities/individuals should be incorporated, such as:

"Bodies concerned with the cultural and historical aspects of weapons and other entities/individuals suitably registered/recognised as such may be authorised to obtain deactivated firearms whose deactivation was carried out before 8 April 2016 [the date of entry into force of COMMISSION IMPLEMENTING REGULATION (EU) 2015/2403] provided they are declared under Category C firearms."

**This addition allows for businesses who hire out weapons for film/tv/theatre/historical events to obtain deactivated weapons to older deactivation standards that are more suitable for such media productions and events.
**It also allows for other exemptions such as fully-insured and recognised re-enactment groups, museums, security training companies, as defined in a particular Member State (similar to the exemptions listed in the Violent Crime Reduction Act in the UK), who use deactivated weapons to older deactivation standards in their activities.
**This also provides an alternative means of sale of older-specification deactivated weapons to registered/recognised bodies/entities/individuals, in addition to the means of sale to private individuals/etc in Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/2403 that has the caveat that older-specification deactivated weapons must be brought up to the new standard before being sold. This (a) means that current owners of older-specification deactivations have the chance to not lose the current value of these deactivated weapons if they can sell to a registered/recognised body/entity/individual wishing to purchase said deactivated weapon, (b) allows another legally-recognised avenue of sale instead of them being sold on the illegal market, and (c) creates a record of who has purchased older-specification deactivated weapons in case of future need of reference.[/quote]

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2nd Armored in Europe : http://www.2ndarmoredineurope.co.uk
D-505-PIR/2nd Armd : http://www.d505pir.com
Look Out Below! : http://www.look-out-below.co.uk/

"The only thing stopping you, is you"


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 22:19 pm 
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It doesnt need a massive amendment .... just remember that according to the LAW - no one is allowed to own a prohibited firearm in this country.

Yet how many of us know several Section 5 dealers and hire stuff from them?
If the law can have a loophole for live firers to remain in the hands of god fearing sensible people - why cant it have one for deacts?

Just remember ----- its not just for gun loving weirdos. all the exemptions got argued through when the other laws got passed. its only asking the same exemptions are retained for this one.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 0:04 am 
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Of the Committee Members, James Cleverly is proboably a good bet, for asking for support. He's anti-E.U., pro-business, T.A. Major Royal Artilery. He's M.P. for Braintree, covering Cressing temple, (Temple at War). He's likely to a have a pretty good idea what's going on, and hopefully lend his support to our effforts.

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From the DWA

The Home Office has finally responded to our question about a UK deactivated firearms in a deceased estate:

6. Where a current collector of UK deactivated firearms dies, what will be the requirements/process for the executors of their estate with respect to any UK deactivated firearms they owned?

As the firearms will need to be transferred, initially to the deceased person’s executors, at this point the firearms will need to comply with the new deactivation standards regardless of whether the individual weapons had a valid UK deactivation certificate. The deceased person’s executors will need to make arrangements for the firearms to be deactivated to the new EU technical specifications before the transfer to the beneficiary can take place or the deactivated weapon can be sold.

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