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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:20 am 
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Real Name: Justin Wheeler
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I should have done, as an independent. The major groups with the resources and numbers, seem to be failing, again and again and again. Not much point being affiliated to representative geoups which don't represent.

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Last edited by maquis on Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 13:53 pm 
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I have to say I get a little bored with your demands that groups of which you are not a member should act on your behalf.

You aren't a member of Za Ob, therefore we don't listen to you when it comes to our internal debate about what we do and where we do it.

You (or I) aren't a member of NARES either, so quit moaning about them.

If you want to effect change in a system, you need to be a part of the system.

To be perfectly frank, no one group or individual small or large will sway the outcome of this. Only a constant, well informed, intelligent debate with the powers that be MIGHT do something.

That's already going on, you can thank the people doing it later if you like, but they assumed that if they didn't do something, nobody else would - and they were right.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 14:57 pm 
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Point taken, I'll say no more on the subject

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 22:44 pm 
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hatch_five wrote:
So far the only thing that looks to have come into law is new deactivation standards from late April. Having read these they seem virtually the same as current new spec except that magazines need to be welded into the receiver- or if there is no magazine on the weapon then the magazine housing needs to be blocked so a magazine can't be fitted. The big change is that if you sell or pass on an old spec deac you have to have it brought up to the new regs at your own expense beforehand (wiping hundreds off its value at the same time). It's not clear if the same applies to post 95 deacs and welding mags in, but I would expect so. If you already have deacs you can hang on to them as they are.
Dealers are not happy at the changes as it's going to cost them thousands and I can't see it being enforceable- old specs will just change hands on the quiet and people will just claim they had owned them since before the changes came in. Of cause this is a moving feast and they might bring new legislation in in six months banning all deacs- who can say? Our hobby is definitely on the back foot at the moment though!


Thanks. Some real info in amongst the bickering. Going to make storage a bit more problematic, will need to cut a hole in the top of my Bren transit box for starters!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 23:36 pm 
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Don't know where this has come from. Last said publicly, Home office were in no hurry to implement any of the April Regulation, as it pretty much backs up onto the unenforceable Directive. Welding mags was one of the points, that the Home Office and Proof Houses were least happy with. Seeing as we may well , hopefully,be out of the E.U. on June 23rd, I'd hold fire, on sawing holes in boxes.

Has there been another Home Office Meeting ?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 23:01 pm 
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maquis wrote:
Seeing as we may well , hopefully,be out of the E.U. on June 23rd, I'd hold fire, on sawing holes in boxes.


The most that will happen on 24th June is we invoke article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and it will then take a couple of years of negotiation to disentangle things. Which probably won't be disentangled that much as our lords and masters still want to move their money around without borders so the EU will have us over a barrel.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:42 am 
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Copies of the proposed U.K. draft of the April 8th Regulation, have been released by the Home Office, with the full E.U. bolt n mag welding changes, still in place.

Despite having been warned by the Proof Houses and NABIS that the current spec is 'fit for purpose' , and that the E.U. changes are flawed on a number of levels, the U.K proposed version is supposed to come into effect April 8th.

In addition to the Proof Houses being unable to process the flawed E.U. standards, no guidelines have been issued to deac firms who would have to work with the new spec, because no practicable and useable ones yet exist.

This puts businesses in a position of constructive ruination. For between 8th April and as/when such workable guidlines exist, there are only the current NABIS-approved specifications. You have to wonder, why, the E.U. measures have been adopted and released now, when half of government is in a state of semi shutdown, due to the referendum, and the measures haven't even been tested as workable, and the Proof Houses have said for months, that they are not workable.
The Regulation feeds into Directive, so a period of delay, until all the related areas can be cleared up, would seem reasonable.

The way this has emerged, suggests that the legality of the U.K. draft Regulation/instrument, is at best questionable, at worst, false at Law.


Post from Jip McTavish, UK Deactivated History:

Ok by now everyone has seen the confusing news about the new EU deactivation specifications. The Home Office have not released an official statement on these new rules. These rules were introduced on 15th December by the RU and are badly written and leave the window open for criminals to smuggle firearms under the guise they are deactivated as there is no way of checking the deactivation work undertaken with this new spec.

Time for YOU to step up to the plate. Please email your local MP, your MEPs and the Home Office and raise awareness of these issues. There is no way of regulating sales of what is essentially as innocuous as a man hole cover.

The current UK deactivation specifications are 48 pages long and have taken over 28 years to get to the standard they are and are being thrown away in lieu of a hastily written 10 page document written by someone with no concept of metallurgy!

NABIS have said that current UK deactivation specifications are fit for purpose and these new regulations have been hurried through leaving us vulnerable to the criminal element in society. The EU directive that is currently being redrafted by Vicky Ford after consultation with stakeholders will probably contain an amendment recognising previous deact work as set out in the working paper discussed at the IMCO 23/2/16

She also wishes to address flaws within the EU deactivation standard with the new directive amendments.

We should push the Home Office to ask what the punishment will be for selling deacts proofed prior to 8/4/16 and also if they will release full details of the processes they wish us to use to deactivate to EU specs.

Home office
public.enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk

Theresa May Home Secretary
mayt@parliament.uk


How to contact your MP and MEP

Www.writetothem.com

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Last edited by maquis on Fri Feb 26, 2016 15:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:01 am 
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No it doesnt.

Government isnt shut for a referendum

read about the time it takes for all laws to become enforceable. Its not always on the day the law gets royal assent .. you get laws that are enforced in stages.

you also get laws that then get regulations ACOPs or guidances on how to interpretate them.

thats why its best you personally stay away from any negotitations because you dont understand basics

you carry on using the old standards up till someone officially issues new ones

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 21:45 pm 
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http://www.worldwidearms.com/new-import ... -news/t10/

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 22:06 pm 
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So you can guarantee that even if the referendum vote is 'out' the powers-that-be will still keep the law on the books

So if the UK is that focused on EU law, why can't we buy (before April 8th) European allowed deacts?

Other areas of EU law state that anything legal in the Eu is legal for Temporary use in the UK ( although i think bicycle lights aren't as potentially exciting or newsworthy)

Surely the most common sense thing with regards to deacts is the same as RIf ?

As reenactors we have a defence

Btw if anyone wants to sell me a deactivated vulcan 30mm chain cannon for my A10 (austin) please do so before April 8.
but just in case please spray it 51% bright orange

so we're going to be forced to purchase RIF's again, I wonder if the next step will be forcing companys such as Denix to stop? :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 22:24 pm 
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One thing that Vicky Ford mentioned in her video from EU Parliament, 23rd February, is lockable cabinets. This may be a way around the Directive proposed ban on deactivated Section A weapons, machine guns. This may resurface at a later date, in March, when she presents her report and discussions resume.

Meanwhile, Government ministers pro leaving the E.U., are prevented by Civil Servants from seeing E.U. related papers, until after the referendum. If that doesn't effectively shut down normal working, I don't know what does.

Speculation has it, that this stops news of later E.U. measures from filtering through, before the U.K. makes a decision. Ironically, the Firearms debate at European Parliamentary level, has been of a higher standard, and far more open , than through the Home Office in the U.K. If reenactors had actually wanted to meet Vicky Ford in London, and put their case, there would have been unrestricted access to the consultation. But hey ho, we know the score by now, same old, same old.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 21:33 pm 
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Correct me if this is wrong:
The April Regulation for Deactivation Standards, is being transpositioned, into U.K. law, using a Statutory Instrument (S.I.) ?

This should go via the Secretary of State, for Business,Innovation and Skills, as Chairman of the Reducing Regulation Sub-Committee, (RRC), for approval, as a Transposition Plan. This should contain main elements, fundamental objectives, effects and impact on U.K. citizens. This should be specific.
Guidelines for Transposiition Notes: 2014
4. Before starting Transposition,departments must satisfy the RRC, that they have identified the aims of the E.U. Law,and policies of the U.K. government,and how the two will be brought into harmony.
5.Legal text for U.K. Transposiition should only be finalized, once the RRC has agreed policy framework.
6.The Regulatory Poilicy Committee MUST clear impact assessments,for ALL transposition proposals.
There should be a Project Plan, which meets guiding standards and compliments domestic objectives.

Explanatory Notes:Should include an annex,set of Transposition Notes,illustrating how the Government intends to transpose the Regulation into U.K. law.

The drafting of the Satutory Instrument can use either Copy-Out, lifting wording directly from the E.U. Regulation, or Elaboration, going over the precise process in more technical detail.

From the reaction of Deac Dealers/Armourers, who saw the wording recently,and have attended Home Office meetings, it sounds as though Copy-Out was used. There were no attached annexes, containing Explanatory Notes
The basic document runs to 10 pages, replacing 48 pages of previous U.K. Deac guidelines, built up over years of work .

In Vicky Ford's 23rd February E.U. Parliamentary video, she stated that the E.U. Parliamentary Committee, reworking the Directive and looking again at the Regulation, was being hampered by the lack of Impact assessments, which had not been done by the Commission. I'd love to see the U.K. Statutory Instrument Transposition Note, Regulatory Impact Assessment and annexed Explanatory Notes, assuming these have now been done.

The U.K. Statutory Instrument has appeared in copy-out form, still 10 pages, and armourers and deac dealers have noted the lack of explanatory notes or annexes. It clearly has't been technically Elaborated, anywhere near the Secretary of State for Business ans Skills' RRC Sub-Committee, Regulatory Policy Committee for clearance of Regulatory Impact Assessments. Oh dear, a certain dept is off the rails, AWOL>

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 21:43 pm 
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I started seeing rumours of this recently, and was concerned as I will be doing the ANET camp in Normandie for 4 days in May this year. Do I take a Deact or a replica along? I am based in France, but none of their deacts are anywhere near the 1995 UK legislation, let alone the new EU one.

St Etienne (the only official place to deact an arm in France it would seem) is going to be very busy bring that lot up up date!

The surprise is for Black powdered weapons (muzzle loaders - let's face it, no muzzle loader was ever conceived to use nitro cellulose based powders) which were excluded from any paper work in France a couple years back (unless you wanted to shoot it), now passing through a deact EU law. Perhaps they will add crossbows next.

However looking at most gun crime, it's either pistols or Ak47s both of which were obtained and smuggled in illegally. Or the odd occasional shot gun held legally by a nut. If work needs to be done, it is to tighten up the borders to stop smuggling.

The good news, your EU standard deact can travel anywhere in Europe even if it's lot less useful now for reenactment.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:45 am 
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More research from across the channel in France does not seem to show any change in law.

St Etienne is still following its previous standards and makes no mention on the much tighter EU ones. The French Gov site, still has the same rules for firearms following their modification a couple of Septembers back (which actually saw WWII weapons in the main drop a category). Fully functional 1900 muzzle loaders can be owned without any registration....

The only discussion I have seen are groups wishing to take their arms to shooting contests in other EU countries. Their arms while meeting French laws, full short of this new EU one.

This paints a picture of, if you wish to sell a Deact to anywhere in Europe then this is the standard it must meet. Before now, there was no standard and it was impossible to sell a deact between countries. On the other hand, a French deact can still be sold to the 1978 deact standards in France!

The UK government seems to have taken this EU norm (which looks to be every countries rules merged into one) and use it as the new UK standard as well!

The EU discussion on this looks odd as well. It sets about imposing new limits due to shocking terrorists attacks in Paris last year caused by the easy circulation of illegal firearms which in turn results in a new set of common deact laws. Perhaps the alternative of stronger EU border controls to stop arms coming in was politically incorrect!

This result does nothing to stop terrorists from bring in illegal AK47s and using them in their crimes -which is of course the real issue.
So far the French which actually had the terror attacks, has a government that does not see any need for change on deacts at this time it would seem and is actually revisiting border and terrorist surveillance issues instead.

Of course if a French shop wants to sell a French deact to another EU country, there is no authority yet in France certified to do it (St Etienne work only to the 1978 French rules). I guess in practice, the shop will remain as is and not sell outside France as they do today. Technically however a UK shop could now sell a deact to anywhere in the EU with this certificate where as before they clearly could not.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:36 am 
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Perhaps you should read this well-researched article to understand what they are actually trying to stop with the Firearms Directive updates - it is one massive loophole.....

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 83461.html

The illegal trade is another issue, and such never deactivated/converted full-autos are already outlawed for most people under the current Firearms Directive.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:31 am 
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All the fuss was with the April Reg which was forced through in an unworkable state, mostly targetting deacs, which had nothing to do with the problem. Meanwhile, as pointed out in Der Spiegel, blank/salute expansion weapons weren't even in the picture. Laughable. Oh, and Saudi Arabia, source of all those Wahhabist mis-translated Qurans, still remains an 'ally'. What exactly is Britain committed to, in the Bitter Lake Treaty, apart from supplying Saudi with arms ?? Saudi Arabia sponsors the Wahhabists in Pakistan, Brussels, Bosnia. Are the security service really that stupid ?

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