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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 19:00 pm 
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The value of investments can fall as well as rise?
I do have genuine sympathy for those with large collections of older de-acts should the law change and not favour them.
The thing to do is get active and make your voices heard.
It is obvious to me that a united effort from re-enactors would be more effective, the B/S eliteism will stop that, everyone protecting their own niche as normal, in some cases acting against the common good to protect their position.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 20:14 pm 
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To be honest, the usually cited terms of "elitism" and whatever are the least of our problems.

The plain and simple problem is, just like we saw with the VCRA, actually getting anyone to do anything at all.

Never ceases to amaze me how many what I can only assume to be totally illiterate people there are in this hobby. That is what ties us to the ground, your inability to realise to have a say, we have to play...

Yeah the number of people who have viewed this thread will be a few thousand in a couple of weeks, but how many will have actually written into the Home Office?

Lets start with the big boys... have CORA written? AFRA? LHA? SBG? There are the 4 biggest bodies in WW2 reenactment in the UK... are they doing something?

Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but quite frankly most of you will do sh*t all to help and complain loudly when the anti-gun lobby manage to get more voiced opinion than we do. We live in a democracy, you need to make noise to be heard!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 20:25 pm 
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LHA - yes, a response is being drafted. NAReS - response being drafted after a few phone calls to the HO.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 20:35 pm 
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SimonC wrote:
".........Owners of pre-1995 deactivations would have to meet the cost of ‘upgrading’ their guns to the 1995 standard......."

".........deactivations between 1989 and 1994, all requiring upgrading..........."

They seem a bit vague with dates in this document. Can anyone tell me if there was an exact date in 1995 when the de-activation standards changed?
The reason I ask is that I have seen weapons with deactivation dates on their certs of late 1995, that have been deactivated to the earlier 1989 'old spec'.


It was October 1995, although I don't know the exact date offhand. I also don't know how they operated the 'cut off' date in practice. Maybe date of arrival at the proof house? etc.

I haven't yet drafted my formal response to the consultation. But I think one of the themes I shall emphasise is that as they are unregistered, 'carrot' is a more sensible approach than 'stick'. The more draconian the restrictions, the more they will be ignored. (think Brocock) There are various platitudes in the document about not unduly impinging on the law obiding and hopefully they'll do more than play lip service to it.

As I'm a collector and not a reenactor, I shall recommend that collecting is made a legal defence to buy and sell deacts in the same way that reenacting is a legal defence to buy and sell replicas. The obvious question is how you define a 'collector', but membership of an organisation with PLI or suchlike?

Mark

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 21:23 pm 
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Lets start with the big boys... have CORA written? AFRA? LHA? SBG? There are the 4 biggest bodies in WW2 reenactment in the UK... are they doing something?

As a Units co-ordinator I have an obligation to the association to voice a collective argument, however this does not mean unit commanders and individual unit’s members do not also have an obligation to the hobby to put forward and individual collectors and group opinion, get to it, I am!

If you are deploying to COAM with your unit at the end of the month come and see me for a sit rep Andy

Regards

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 21:28 pm 
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Glad to hear some people are getting off of their backsides!

Lee and Dave are doing their bits for CORA and the LHA respectively, so the rest of us need to follow in their footsteps!

It doesn't need to be a highly acclaimed prize winning English essay, just get your facts down on a piece of paper and avoid ranting if you can. Keep it nice and simple - remember these are civil servants who have to read it ;-)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 21:31 pm 
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Andrei Kozlov wrote:
Glad to hear some people are getting off of their backsides!

Lee and Dave are doing their bits for CORA and the LHA respectively, so the rest of us need to follow in their footsteps!

It doesn't need to be a highly acclaimed prize winning English essay, just get your facts down on a piece of paper and avoid ranting if you can. Keep it nice and simple - remember these are civil servants who have to read it ;-)


What are you doing about it Andy!

Regards

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 21:50 pm 
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Me, I've got my own submission to send of course, but what we really need are submissions from those who represent larger interest groups.

Also a good idea to use the same wordings to your MP and express your concerns to them.

One thing worth pointing out, ONE or more of the options on that list will probably become the route they take, so its worth considering which one you consider to be least damaging and support that rather than reject the whole lot...

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"I saw cities in Europe that were practically untouched by the war, countries that capitulated to the more powerful enemies even before war was declared, but we are not like that. Our grandfathers, our fathers, our older generation, our great leaders, fought here for each building, for each street." - First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on the 70th anniversary of victory at Stalingrad


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 21:56 pm 
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One thing worth pointing out, ONE or more of the options on that list will probably become the route they take, so its worth considering which one you consider to be least damaging and support that rather than reject the whole lot...

I agree 100% I was and always will be for having a licence to hold these deactivated weapons. I am my group have nothing to hide.

Those that say they THEN know where to come when a total ban comes into force, if it did, well they already know where to come in 90% of cases, the shows!

Regards to all

LB

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 22:13 pm 
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Yes, little point in us trying to hide deacs if they are banned Lee... we want them afterall for display in public, not hidden in a cupboard forever!

That sort of ban is however unlikely as this very consultation paper says - it is better for guns to have a collector's value as a deac, because this means weapons get chopped up and stop killing people.... and that really is the case.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:59 am 
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Andrei Kozlov wrote:
It doesn't need to be a highly acclaimed prize winning English essay, just get your facts down on a piece of paper and avoid ranting if you can. Keep it nice and simple - remember these are civil servants who have to read it ;-)


Agreed. I'd just add that I suspect the best approach when replying is to regard it as being a bit like an exam and specifically answer some or all of the seven consultation questions given on page 11 with just one or two paragraphs for each. Telling them at great length what you think of them and their general attitude may be very satisfying, but your reply will probably end up filed under 'forget'. When they draft their conclusions, they'll be wanting short and snappy soundbites to quote.

I'd also agree that the logical solution is have a proper licensing system - it needn't be as demanding or as expensive to operate as the system for live firearms. Unfortunately they don't want to spend any money at all due to other more pressing demands on the public purse such as banker's pensions. :wink:

Mark

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:52 am 
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peregrinvs wrote:
Andrei Kozlov wrote:
It doesn't need to be a highly acclaimed prize winning English essay, just get your facts down on a piece of paper and avoid ranting if you can. Keep it nice and simple - remember these are civil servants who have to read it ;-)


I'd also agree that the logical solution is have a proper licensing system - it needn't be as demanding or as expensive to operate as the system for live firearms. Unfortunately they don't want to spend any money at all due to other more pressing demands on the public purse such as banker's pensions. :wink:

Mark


We all pay for a TV licence, we all pay for an MOT, We all pay for medication (this OP is costing me a fortune in pills) So if a Licence for my pre 95, or any deact I have in my collection requires a Licence I have to pay for, then its still got to be cheaper than the X number of Deacts I will need converting to Post 95 Spec if that law is passed. I am law abiding, I have nothing to hide, all the Deacts I have are all certified and have many photo copied back up paperwork filed and carried with weapons. I have nothing to hide.

Regards

Lee

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I have always endeavoured to listen to what each and every person in a discussion had to say before venturing my own opinion. Oftentimes, my own opinion will simply represent a con-census of what I heard in the discussion. I always remember the axiom: a leader is like a shepherd. He stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.”

Nelson Mandela


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 13:39 pm 
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FAAA wrote:
peregrinvs wrote:
Andrei Kozlov wrote:
It doesn't need to be a highly acclaimed prize winning English essay, just get your facts down on a piece of paper and avoid ranting if you can. Keep it nice and simple - remember these are civil servants who have to read it ;-)


I'd also agree that the logical solution is have a proper licensing system - it needn't be as demanding or as expensive to operate as the system for live firearms. Unfortunately they don't want to spend any money at all due to other more pressing demands on the public purse such as banker's pensions. :wink:

Mark


We all pay for a TV licence, we all pay for an MOT, We all pay for medication (this OP is costing me a fortune in pills) So if a Licence for my pre 95, or any deact I have in my collection requires a Licence I have to pay for, then its still got to be cheaper than the X number of Deacts I will need converting to Post 95 Spec if that law is passed. I am law abiding, I have nothing to hide, all the Deacts I have are all certified and have many photo copied back up paperwork filed and carried with weapons. I have nothing to hide.

Regards

Lee


Lee you are of course right about a licence costing us less than the chop but the licence route will cost the government more so it is less likely to happen, which I'm sure you are aware of my friend.

I totally agree also that we in the majority have nothing to hide and we must support eachother in this.

I set up the National Meeting of Reenactors last year with the deact ban as one of the points discussed. My letter was also posted in Gun Mart which hit a greater audience. All good steps forward and in the main most agreed with the sentiment the only detractors being those who felt it was there was a threat to their own ambitions. Which I felt was doing more harm than good to reenacting, that's why there is NOT another meeting this year.

The issue has now risen again and we must ALL do something!

Don't leave it to the larger groups, they WILL do their bit, you as an individual will have an impact if you write that letter to your MP and the Home Office.

10,000 letter from individuals will have more impact than 10 from groups.

Matt Harley.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 23:08 pm 
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One thing struck me when reading the "consultation document".

The foreword states that:

"The police have brought to our attention their concerns about the use of deactivated
firearms in crime...... Although the official statistics suggest the problem is small, the police tell us that the real picture is much more worrying. Data supplied by the Forensic Science Service gives
some support to this."

In Part 2 we find the following:

"These statistics suggest that the problem is small but they might not tell the full picture......The Forensic Science Service examines around 40% of all guns recovered by police forces and other law
enforcement bodies in England and Wales."

So, 60% of recovered firearms are not examined by the FSS.

The document goes on to say :

"These figures could be artificially low due in part to the fact that deactivated firearms, where it is clear that they cannot fire, are less likely to be submitted for examination to the FSS than converted or live firearms."

An explanation for the lack of deacs in the stats that implies someone is examining these firearms and finding that they are all deacs.

So who is doing the examining ? Its not the FSS, so someone who is qualified in the eyes of the law must be doing it. Could it be........ the police? Well the document does say:

"The police have advised the Home Secretary that despite the low numbers in official statistics, the true scale of criminal misuse of deactivated guns is much larger and must be tackled."

So where's their evidence?

They apparently examine 60% of all recovered firearms but don't provide any breakdown of what they find.

Why not ?

If its such a major problem then lets see some evidence, they obviously have it.
But, for whatever reason dont want to make it public.

Why not?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:54 am 
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It would be sensible also if any changes were restricted to hand guns/SMG's and post WW2 manufacture.

Your average criminal uses a MAC 10 or similar.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:46 am 
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But isn't that what its likely to effect anyway?

The pre/post 1995 deac spec is all about hand guns (revolvers particularly), smg's and assault rifles - ie the small handy things for gang bangers....

If they make you weld stuff up, it will be those.

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