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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:11 am 
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I have never seen such crap in all my life. What a load of unworkable rubbish.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:22 am 
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GliderRider wrote:
From the DWA

The Home Office has finally responded to our question about a UK deactivated firearms in a deceased estate:

6. Where a current collector of UK deactivated firearms dies, what will be the requirements/process for the executors of their estate with respect to any UK deactivated firearms they owned?

As the firearms will need to be transferred, initially to the deceased person’s executors, at this point the firearms will need to comply with the new deactivation standards regardless of whether the individual weapons had a valid UK deactivation certificate. The deceased person’s executors will need to make arrangements for the firearms to be deactivated to the new EU technical specifications before the transfer to the beneficiary can take place or the deactivated weapon can be sold.


i'm missing something because the regulations ONLY stated "placing on the market" or "Gift" ...... the amendment to the Police and Crime Bill is equally as poorly worded?

A bequest is neither so the HO advisors making it up.
At least the DWA managed remind someone to reword the new legislation to make it a bit tighter though, which is good. We should be ensuring that loopholes get closed !! So its important i think to support the amendment and inclusion of the EU standards in the P&C bill , but only if the wording of the amendment is put right first.

so lets have some constructive critism of the amendment ........ the sort of stuff you should write in rather than just calling it names. wording is really important, even the placing of a single bit of punctuation can change the meaning of a law completely (which is why some legal documents completely forget to put any punctuation in)


There's a lot of little points in the amendment but basically it should be an offence not just to place on the market or gift .... it should be an offence to hire, lend, find, transfer, in any form.

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Last edited by lordduvet on Fri Apr 08, 2016 15:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:50 am 
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I have just emailed all the members of the committee the following:
I am writing to you as a member of the Police & Crime Bill Committee. I am a re-enactor and as such am involved in many educational and commemorative activities for the heritage industry and public bodies.
For some months now our group has been monitoring the process of proposed EU legislation to severely restrict the ownership and movement of deactivated weapons, and lobbying key figures in Europe.
Notionally the EU measures are to prevent the use of deactivated weapons reactivated by criminals and terrorists. The proposals include the total banning of the ownership of deactivated automatic and semi-automatic weapons, a licensing system for deactivated weapons, and the introduction of a EU wide 'higher' standard for deactivation.
In practice the measures will have no impact on criminals and terrorists who have ready access to live firing weapons without the need to re-activate deactivated weapons. Much taxpayer's money will be spent on regulating the law-abiding without any impact upon criminal or terrorist activity. This money would be better used in providing the law enforcement, security and intelligence services with the means to gather intelligence and pursue prosecutions. Instead taxpayer's money will be wasted on regulating the law-abiding.
These measures have largely come about through the misconception that the AK47 assault rifles used in the Charlie Hebdo attack were deactivated weapons which were reactivated. This is false, they were in fact illegal live weapons, poorly converted to fire blanks only and then converted back again to take live rounds. I would ask why it is that Vicky Ford has been able to correctly differentiate between properly deactivated weapons and these illegal converted blank firing AK47s where as so called law enforcement experts, Commissioners and other politicians incorrectly see them as the same thing and are prepared to waste legislative time and taxpayers money as a result. The European Commission are also justifying their actions by saying that they are also in response to 10,000 firearms related deaths in the EU over the past decade. However, when pressed, they are unable to provide any details on this. How many were as a result of illegal weapons, how many were as a result of shotguns or bolt action hunting rifles? These categories of firearms may well have contributed to these figures, yet are not included in the scope of the EU legislation. I would suspect that not one UK deactivated firearm was part of these tragic statistics and therefore it is highly likely that this law is targeting the wrong areas. I would ask that the committee revisit the extensive work done by Parliament in 2006 on the Violent Crime Reduction Bill and consider why MPs then decided to drop deactivated weapons from the scope of that legislation.
Of particular concern is the proposed EU deactivation standard. The UK deactivation standards are already acknowledged as the best in Europe. The UK standard allows for the sympathetic and effective deactivation of the weapon, whilst allowing the collector and historian to understand and demonstrate the workings of each weapon. The UK regulations are covered in some 50 pages of professionally developed measures that prevent a weapon being reactivated. By contrast the proposed EU regulations have been hastily conceived and provide only five pages of general direction.
Mike Penning MP and Home Office Minister, has put forward the following amendment to the Police and Crime Bill to align it to the EU Deactivation Regulation that is due to come into force, we understand, on 8 April 16. The amendment can be found at the following link,
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 36-42.html
In essence all pre 8/4/16 UK specification deactivated weapons will be classed as 'defectively deactivated weapons' and it will be a criminal offence to sell, or gift, such a deactivated weapon within the UK and EU (but not to a country outside the EU),and conviction will carry a prison sentence of between six months and five years. Ownership of the pre-Apr 16 deactivated weapons will not be illegal, however should current owners wish to travel to Europe with the weapons, the owners will be required to have the weapon deactivated to the EU standard before travel.
The Conservative MEP Vicky Ford has been conducting some outstanding work in the European Parliament subjecting the proposed EU regulations to rigorous scrutiny. As chair of the committee conducting the review she has done much to protect the legitimate interests of the heritage industry, collectors and historians, the deactivated firearms industry, the film industry and the living history/re-enactor community. In particular she is fighting to ensure that UK deactivation standards are accepted as equivalent in law to the proposed EU deactivation standards.
The rushed introduction of this bill is UK 'gold-plating' of substandard and poorly drafted EU regulations of the very worst sort. The amendment is being introduced before the Jun 16 EU referendum - indeed it feels as if the Home Office is rushing through the legislation before the vote. Worse still the introduction of the amendment appears to be working against the outstanding parliamentary work undertaken by Vicky Ford that will protect British interest across the heritage, film, firearms and collector industries and communities.
The impact of the proposed amendment requiring the application of the EU deactivation standards is broad:
The legitimate firearms trade have already seen a considerable drop in prices for deactivated weapons. I would anticipate that the fall in values will be sustained. Ultimately this represents a drop in tax revenue. I should add I hold no brief for the trade other than wishing to purchase firearms from legitimate traders.
Fewer weapons will be deactivated for legitimate sale to collectors. Instead the healthy trade in the purchase of the large number of live-firing weapons in Europe for the purposes of deactivation will decline, leaving more live-firing weapons available for criminals and terrorists (not that they have any issues accessing firearms already).
Owners of deactivated weapons purchased in good faith will see a considerable drop in the value of their collections. They will also have to bear the additional cost of further deactivation work on the weapons before they can sell the weapon a much reduced price. I note that there is no provision for compensation for the arbitrary application of this expense on collectors. Unfortunately the one outcome will be that some private owners will choose to trade illegally rather than see perfectly good deactivated weapons relegated to lumps of iron and wood. This is the precise opposite of the outcome intended by the proposed EU legislation and Home Office amendment.
There will be a considerable impact on a range of museums - large and small - who will have to bear deactivation costs if weapons are transferred between collections.
Police efforts will be diverted to regulating legitimate collectors, and away from supporting the counter-terrorism and crime effort. This is a considerable waste of tax-payer's money and increases the risk to UK security rather than enhancing security.
This ammendment creates a situation where an owner selling a UK spec deact which is deactivated to a higher standard than the EU spec (and therefore safer) after Mr Penning's amendment becomes law will be committing a criminal offence and will be liable to imprisonment.
It is estimated that there are currently at least 300,000 deactivated firearms in the UK, which will all fall into Mr Penning’s “defective deactivated weapons” category, made worthless by his amendment as they effectively cannot be legally sold. I would suggest that that is a lot of law abiding voting members of the public to penalise with ill conceived and poorly targeted legislation.
Should Mr Penning's amendment be passed I will no longer be able to take my deactivated weapons to France or Belgium for display without the expense of the weapons being deactivated to the EU standard, when the UK standard should have been adopted or at the very least recognised as an equivalent which at least achieves the same end. Ironically, those with live-firing weapons and fire arms certificates will be able to take their weapons on a European Firearms Permit. The introduction of the amendment is placing future events in jeopardy. This will effectively end UK participation in 20th Century reenactment in other EU countries.
The proposed EU legislation and Mr Penning's amendment amount to regulation of the law abiding with no impact upon the criminal and terrorist. The United Kingdom already has the most rigorous control of firearms - live firing and de-activated - in Europe. We should not be lowering our standards through the adoption and introduction of this hasty and ill-prepared legislation and amendments.
I would ask that you please oppose Mr Penning's amendment, and request a delay at least until Ms Ford's work in the EU parliament is complete. My strong hope is that Ms Ford's own amendments will result in a rational approach to control of deactivated firearms across the EU, and indeed that EU standards will be raised to match this currently applied in the UK.
Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Not my letter, but the author has given us all permission to use it and the more emails they get the better. Not sure if it will do any good, but to quote Edmund Burke, "all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing"

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:54 am 
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Well done.

The Committee should be obliged to hear from Reenactors/Groups, as evidence ,illustrating how flawed the new measures are. They should also be required to visit military history fairs/ww2 events, before making any decisions.

There needs to be a review of exactly how the HO/civil servants rail-roaded this through, in such a shoddy manner, taking steps to ensure it cannot happen again.

Placing poorly-drafted, ill-thought through measures, such as this in front of Parliament, represents an utter contempt for Democracy and its Institutions.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 14:31 pm 
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Look at us being all professional and co-operative, taking action too. It's a pleasure to see :)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:47 pm 
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As no other sensible country has introduced the bare bones Reg, this represents an unfair restriction to free trade, within one member state. This put the whole thing back into Vicky Ford's remit, as Rapporteur, for trade and consumer protection.
In order to investigate this draconian infringement, E.U.investigators will need to place a deac on the open market in the U.K.

Subsidiarity is no defence in free trade matters, as it's either free and open, or not. Any ensuing court case, should expose the Regulation to legal testing against Reasonbably Practicable, and if the defective Reg or its draconian missuse is deemed to be ultra vires, the whole thing may be struck down completely.

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Last edited by maquis on Sat Apr 09, 2016 13:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:57 pm 
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The UK hasnt introduced them either......

Its in the process of introducing them... same as everyother member state will be.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 13:25 pm 
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Not true. 23.59 hrs on the 7/4, not an offence in the U.K. After 00.00 hrs, now a supposed offence. Not in several other E.U. countries, who've decided to wait for amendments.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 13:29 pm 
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No normal democratic state would start introduction, with an empty bill, which terms something 'defective', while there remains no current process for making it compliant, or amendments for standards that were acceptable .This is pure civil service weasel! In the wider Guidelines, the Home Office hands over executive powers and some quasi-judicial ones,too, to the police,in total absolute.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 14:43 pm 
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maquis wrote:
Not true. 23.59 hrs on the 7/4, not an offence in the U.K. After 00.00 hrs, now a supposed offence. Not in several other E.U. countries, who've decided to wait for amendments.

This doesn't really make any sense. Where does it state it's an offence in the UK and not other EU countries?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 15:01 pm 
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The other countries,Germany especially, have decided to wait until they get the amended/workable Reg,BEFORE doing anything.!!!!!

As opposed to sneaking weasel/defective part-legislation through.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 15:05 pm 
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Longbow wrote:
maquis wrote:
Not true. 23.59 hrs on the 7/4, not an offence in the U.K. After 00.00 hrs, now a supposed offence. Not in several other E.U. countries, who've decided to wait for amendments.

This doesn't really make any sense. Where does it state it's an offence in the UK and not other EU countries?


exactly.

there's no such thing as a "supposed offence"

All the other countries are working it through their legislature same as the UK is. = you show me the evidence that Germany (or any other country) is ignoring an EU regulation or delaying its implimentation.

the trouble is someone listens too much to the anti - EU vote out muslamic quran crap and forget the facts

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 16:06 pm 
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The other counties have waited for amendments and working deac guidelines, because it's the guidelines and Reg which ARE defective.

There is nothing defective about the deacs with certificates. U.K. officialdom have chosen to run with this spurious nonsense, 'defective descs' bullshit, because it suits Home Office/ACPO ambitions.

The first case in front of a U.K. court, as is, will fall flat. Hopefully, the E.U. free trade Rapporteur will investigate this unilateral infringement, and test the U.k. market.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 16:24 pm 
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now you've invested a first case for an offence that doesnt yet exist in anything other than a draft amendment to a Bill that is still at committee stage.



It was only weeks ago that you and others were panicing how the EU directive was going to be steamrollered though, then screaming that Vicky Ford was just there to steam roller the directive through. now Vicky ford is your hero.

stop bloody panicmongering.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 16:46 pm 
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Vicky Ford's remit, if I'm correct is free trade, and consumer protection, Rapporteur in the wider Firearms Directive.

So for the moment, we can sit tight, awaiting developments.

And the 8th April date hasn't actually been enforced?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:09 am 
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Despite the legal position still being rather grey, with amendments trickling down from the EU Politburo, the Home Office has taken a very direct and forthright position on the new act and implemented it as it stands.

The reason, a golden opportunity to severely damage the trade in deactivated firearms and another blow at wider public ownership of firearms in general.

They don't have to ban anything, just give it long enough for most deac companies to go under (not long, with £££££ of stock they can do nothing with at present due to confusion with the Proof Houses, huge bills and employees to pay).

Who will be left in the market place when this nonsense has died down, not many people, that's a cold hard fact!


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