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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 16:11 pm 
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The consultation document can be found here: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/ ... iew=Binary

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 16:29 pm 
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Not AGAIN!

They aren't going to leave this one alone are they...

Will read later and respond....

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 16:34 pm 
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This one has been expected for the last 9-10 months on the back of the VCRA. Delays etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 16:51 pm 
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Interesting reading - looks like the pre-95 Deacs are up for the chop - Cost bourne by the Owners, a diminishing cost to the govt (since the amount of pre-95 deacs will gradually wither away)...Screw the owners at no cost to the Govt :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 21:34 pm 
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Is it just me or don't the stats on crimes add up on page 8? How can those figures in that table tie up with the figure of deactivated weapons examined by the FSS? Unless 2003/2004 had 115 deactivated weapon related crimes!!! That being the case, looks like they had it cracked in 2004, its been much quieter since! :wink:

Quote:
The police have advised the Home Secretary that despite the low numbers in official statistics, the true scale of criminal misuse of deactivated guns is much larger and must be tackled. This consultation paper is the first step in the Government’s response to this problem.


I suggest someone gets off of their butts and gets out and finds all these criminals that presumably are totally invisible for 5 years, not write another bloody consultation paper!

Didn't all this crap get swept away when the previous set of stats given to Jackie Smith prove to be a pile of lies? So all they have done is to put the proper (insignificant) figures in and reissue it!

They might as well write a similar thing on the number of incidents of giraffes getting sexually molested by perverts... "just because the crime figures say bugger all doesn't mean to say its not going on everywhere all the time!"

I hate to rise to the bait in such a way, but surely someone has something better to do with parliament time than this??

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 22:23 pm 
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As an owner of a collection of deactivated guns (but not a re-enactor) I've been following the ups and downs of this very closely. Having just read the consultation paper, three immediate thoughts spring to mind:

1. They clearly don't want to spend any money, which means the end result will be some sort of unhappy compromise between a total ban and a proper licensing system.

3. I wonder if they'll avoid forcing people to 'upgrade' their pre-1995 specs as the legal arguments over effectively making people pay to damage their own property and reduce it's value could get interesting. However, only making it a condition of sale may get round this.

2. The glaring omission in the paper is the 'what the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over' factor or creating the conditions that encourage the formation of a blackmarket. (and therefore increasing the overall probability of criminals getting hold of deactivated guns) I naturally don't condone such things, but the result of the Brocock ban (circa 80% unaccounted for I believe?) speaks for itself.

I shall consider my response.

Mark

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How long does it usually take from consultation to law? I mean, including all the ups and downs through the Lords, sidewatys via committees etc? Honest question - it just occurs that labour may not be around to see this through...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:37 am 
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Steve, the VCR Act took about 1.5-2 years to go from anouncement to fully signed off. Legislation can and does move quicker than that if they want it to...

However, I'd probably say that the results of the consultation won't be discussed until at least November (6 months after the cut off date) and then they will look probably to do whatever it is they decide to do by tagging it onto the next passing criminal law Bill thats going through.

Thats the trick though, to watch out for where they decide to stick it. Its not going to be a firearms named one, its going to get rolled into another catch all. What's the worst thing about that is that just like the VCR Act it will be a minor part of the Bill and get steamrollered through because people don't want to discuss it, they'd sooner talk about the rest of the Bill which is about hoodies, emos, chavs, cutlery on ebay, if Scottish people are going to be allowed to drink alcohol at all and whether Eastenders is too violent.

Having said stuff can be rushed in, I don't think this will be - all of the rush this government has left in it I think will be used to write something to get that banker bloke's pension back off of him...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 22:29 pm 
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Might even be done by a Regulatory Reform order, which could happen very quickly indeed. Hopefully this fag-end of a government will expire in the next few months without doing anything but expect this issue to come back even then.
Note the unspoken statement that "the statistics aren't telling us what we want to hear, so we're going to ignore them and go with the funny feeling in our toe"


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 22:44 pm 
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A gentle reminder - please remember this thread is about the consultation document, not about bashing the Government. The latter will achieve nothing.

Thanks

Dave (with mod hat on)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:29 am 
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Having read this thoroughly, but not digested it, the one thing I note with interest and disappointment is that in the list of people and interest groups that have been consulted, the Sealed Knot and teh English Civil War Society are mentioned, but no WW2 , WW1 , American Old West societies etc who would have actually been the more relevant groups to ask as they actually use de-activated guns whereas the early re-enactment periods do not tend to require the type of weaponry that needs to be de-activated.

I have no problem with the SK and the ECWS per se- I was an active member for many happy years- and know that de-activated weapons and the ability to buy and own them is not an issue which affects them in any way shape or form.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 14:14 pm 
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The list of groups with whom the HO has consulted is the same as were consulted in the 2002 'Firearms Guidance to the Police' document. It's basically a cut and paste!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 14:27 pm 
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I too thought the list was curious for exactly the same reasons as Chris.

On the other hand, Dave's explanation makes perfect sense.

Remember that the purpose of the consultation paper is so that others can submit views... So if you personally or your group wish to make a submission you can... and please do!

I'd expect to see at the very least the major umbrella org's we have from WW2 to be writing... plus several of the larger groups.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 16:37 pm 
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I have said this before and it needs repeating, this is not just a NuLab or PC leftie issue. It was a Tory Govt which banned assault rifles and handguns. A change of government won't make this go away.
The Home Office is pushing this agenda along with the Police, every Re-enactment society should send in a response, we managed a good response over the VCR Bill.
We cannot bear to be complacent.

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".........Owners of pre-1995 deactivations would have to meet the cost of ‘upgrading’ their guns to the 1995 standard......."

".........deactivations between 1989 and 1994, all requiring upgrading..........."

They seem a bit vague with dates in this document. Can anyone tell me if there was an exact date in 1995 when the de-activation standards changed?
The reason I ask is that I have seen weapons with deactivation dates on their certs of late 1995, that have been deactivated to the earlier 1989 'old spec'.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 17:14 pm 
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I know many, many people who's entire collection consists of pre 95 Deactivated weapons, someone is going to make a few bob out of this one if it gets passed and it aint going to be the law abiding citizens who legally (at this time) own a Pre 95 Deactivation collection. To bring up to new spec is going to be potentially out of the question financially for many and the threat is as bad to these people in our hobby as a total ban, and that’s many many people we are talking about. I hope all that intend to voice their opinions in regards to this consultation bear this in mind and do not just look at what I have and what I don’t have at this time. For those with long established groups with members who are dedicated collectors, can you afford to loose your people or are you all now going to do medical units in the future!

Once all deacts are brought up to post 95 spec, if that happens, then there is only one other short step next to total ban. Get on the side of all legitimate owners of all deactivated Historic weapons and fight the single battle. There are other ways of tightening the rules without this unrealistic and costly (to you, me, us) suggested way of dealing with the problem (If indeed there is a problem at all!)

If this element of the proposed plan is to go ahead then the only alternative is to fight for compensation for enforced destruction of personal property, but I will be the first to concede this too will be unrealistic when dealing with this government or any other that some of us have put in power!

If you think for a minute it can not happen and how will they enforce it, just think about the events you attend and think how easy it is to send in the boys in blue to check those pre 95 certificates. Are you prepared to take the risk for what is really only a hobby!!

Regards to all
LB

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