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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:14 am 
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Real Name: Mark Allen
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Ok. Tell me, with your clearly enlightened wisdom, how a bunch of good old boys like the POA could go and massacre some 30,000 civilians in Warsaw in less than a week - BEFORE they even encountered any AK fighters? And that was a conservative estimate. A more realistic, and widely supported figure, is closer to 50,000. Whenever it is mentioned in Poland it carries the precursor 'Black' because it is so imfamous. They were so nasty that they even embarrased the Germans - who, I might add, were fairly cold themselves when it came to massacring civilians. Especially in Poland.

A lack of equipment and respect from the Germans didn't force them to butcher, rape and loot everything in sight. They were more of a hindrance to the Germans than help. Individual units, on occasion, put up a half decent fight but lets not idealise cretins like Vlassov and Kaminski. They even turned traitor on the Germans! They changed sides TWICE!

But we could go on about ideals and morals all day with these units. Everybody in WWII had blood on their hands. It is fine that you chose to reenact this unit as they fought and died like everbody else. Just don't climb the moral high ground for them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:09 am 
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Cookie wrote:
It is fine that you chose to reenact this unit as they fought and died like everbody else. Just don't climb the moral high ground for them.


I never said my wisdom was enlightened. I never even said you were wrong. I just said a little unfair. But there we are, thats me told then! I've just one small question. If the POA were the lead elements in the atrocities in Poland, how come the Warsaw uprising ended in October, but the POA (600 & 650 Division) didn't exist until November 1944?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:27 am 
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Quote:
how a bunch of good old boys like the POA could go and massacre some 30,000 civilians in Warsaw


I think you're confusing the POA with the POHA under Kaminski (Polish Father, German Mother born in Vitebsk, Belorussia). After the Uprising when POHA was disbanded (and their div number reassigned to the Italians) the personnel were supposed to be transferred to the POA but Vlasov refused point blank to take them and, eventually, only agreed to take 10% of them after "careful examination".

Voskoboinik, Kaminski, The Lokot Republic and POHA are part of the fact the Germans effectively re-ignited the Russian Civil War. Look 'em up.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:34 am 
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Actually it was the Kaminski's RONA (Russian National Liberation Army - Russkaya Osvoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armiya) who took part in the Warsaw massacre, not Vlasov's ROA.

Easy to confuse two similar abreviations, but the two were quite different in nature, size and period of operations. I've seen people make the same mistake before, but it was definitely the RONA.

The one thing I remember about the RONA was a anecdotal comment from a German officer who saw them arrive on a train at Warsaw. He said they were a scruffy bunch of thugs and the only way to tell the officers apart from the men was a greater number of watches on their arms...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:36 am 
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Ha! snap!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:20 am 
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Ahhh, I thought I was going (more) crackers then guys!

I was sure POA weren't in Warsaw. Mind you maybe some of the 1st Division operated there? I'd be suprised if they did though as they were still a paper division really at that time.

There is good POA site available but if you cannot read cyrillic, you will need it translating:

http://ROA.ru/

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Last edited by Moscow Spartak on Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:47 am 
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Fair enough. My bad. I apologise!

Just goes to show how mixed up and confused the Eastern units were.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:02 am 
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Some of the first person accounts from Warsaw also use the term "ROA" to describe the RONA and they also use the term "Ukrainians", presumably the UPA although neither were actually there...

Its just people using terms they think applied to what they saw - I doubt if any of them cared to make the distinction at the time as it was a bit more real than a accademic historical debate!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:35 am 
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Cookie wrote:
Fair enough. My bad. I apologise!


Thats cool comrade. No harm done and like you say this is a good illustration of how complex the whole thing is. Its not helped of course with dealers knocking up fantasy items and flooding the market with the wierd and wonderful.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 13:59 pm 
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Thats true, I've spent the last two years trying to locate a BeVo weave Charlemagne cufftitle - with no success. There were so many RZM ones about it was depressing. Also the Sword of st Joan collar patches and inaccurate armshields on offer EVERYWHERE. Some dealers quite happily sell this crap as though it was authentic. Hooray for Nick Morigi and his new BeVo range!

And as for the multitudes of insignia available for the more exotic units, well... Its so damn hard to tell what was worn and what wasn't. Again, proof that doing a study on them is like taking a blind leap of faith. ie: Ostturkischer waffen-verband cufftitle - was it or wasn't it worn? Who can really tell.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 14:21 pm 
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Trouble is some of it is soooo Gucci you *want* it to be real so you can wear it...

Wolf or Kindjal Waffen SS collar patches on Italian cammo M44 uniforms? oh yes please!

Real? Almost certainly not!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:48 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 19:39 pm
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Real Name: Lee Gregory
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i would like to thank everybody who has posted on this subject
it has been a great help even though it got a little heated at one point
i would like to point out that kaminski was arrested by the SS and charged with looting, found guilty and shot by a firing squad and i believe this was on himmlers orders
many thanks again to you all
lee g


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 Post subject: Fighting for Freedom
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:39 pm 
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Hi ,

Have a look at Richard Landwehrs Fighting for Freedom : The ukrainian volunteer Divison of the Waffen-SS, Bibliophile Legion Books Inc. : Silver Spring (Maryland) 1985

Hope it helps.

Jerry


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 Post subject: Fighting for Freedom
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:45 pm 
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Hi ,

Have a look at Richard Landwehrs Fighting for Freedom : The ukrainian volunteer Divison of the Waffen-SS, Bibliophile Legion Books Inc. : Silver Spring (Maryland) 1985

Hope it helps.

Jerry


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 Post subject: project
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:34 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 19:39 pm
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thanks for the post jerry but the project went in in march
by the way guys it got a good pass
many thanks
lee

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