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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 15:50 pm 
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Location: Luton and Stoke-on-Trent
Real Name: Ieuan Smith (Joe)
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What was the talk early of the olive green then? lol.

But at least the tunic was what I expected had to be done.

As I'm not an expert on clothing ect, what is breeches? lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 23:47 pm 
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Group: 1914-21 (20th Century Warfare Society)
Gio wrote:
There is not much to do to tunic except remove the patches and change the buttons , the color is not olive , it is khaki brown.
Now the trousers are different story ,you need to converse the trousers into breeches as shown above and i believe you are good to go, at least that is what our team is doing.


This is interesting, many thanks for posting!!!
The uniform above is obviously Greek of late 30s, but
is not the most usual standard. Shade looks different from mine and
all the samples I have seen in museums and from most photos of the era
also in that it has internal hip pockets. Also the cloth is extremely
thin and brown, maybe is the summer version I see in quite few pre-war pictures?
I wonder if that explains the light colour too.
Cloth came from many sources so some variety is expected, but this is
very odd material for winter uniform. By the way what date are these stamped?

The trousers look quite standard to me, though still a bit on the light end of shade.
Was that taken indoors with flashlight?

Nonetheless, I agree is a great resource, there are so few uniforms out there
is frankly ridiculous, if you think we had an Army of 200,000 men!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:29 am 
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Well it must be the spring or the fact Im missing my uniform but Im back with the Greeks , looking forward to collecting again though, cant think of a better way to spend 2013 LOL .So what have I missed and hows the setting up of the group going , cheers Phill


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 16:14 pm
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Location: Athens-Greece
Real Name: George
Group: WW2 GREEK ARMY 1940-41 REENACTING TEAM
Talking with people that know, there have been 15(!!!) different shades of khaki brown , some are more greyish , furthermore you can see the differences,depending the light, of the same cloth in photos above .
The purpose of the close up photo with the epaulette, was to show exactly that the original material was thicker from what we see or believe today.
As for the museums, especially in Athens and Thessaloniki ,don't rely on them, the uniforms are ridiculously wrong...

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"Only the dead have seen the end of war"
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Greek author & philosopher in Athens (427 BC - 347 BC)

https://www.facebook.com/WW2-Greek-Army ... 751753340/


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 14:07 pm 
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You are absolutely right about the shades, can't say also due to the artificiality of the photo;
add to that that old dyes were very unstable, if badly washed and stored, wool will lighten
and the nap will shed.

Nonetheless let's at least agree that the standard was a thick cloth on the darker/olive end of khaki
at least compared to British WW2 serge. That is obvious even in vast majority of era black and
white pictures and in all reference books without exception. Let's make this clear as people get
confused with all these abundant British SD faked with the addition of Greek buttons.

Also thanks for noting that the shoulder straps appear the right thick cloth, they seem actually
added to a light-weight, non-standard tunic. Also the straps are quite roughly made and lined
with cotton, which looks wrong or improvised.

Can I throw a spanner in the speculation machine?
I did a bit of research in my pics and this light brown jacket looks more like
Metaxas' τάγματα εργασίας (labour battalions) tunic rather than Army,
Could it be from the same source of lesser quality brown cloth or converted to be used in the Army
due to expediency? Also note that the τάγματα εργασίας tunic has no straps and no lower pockets.

BTW Aim to borrow a digital camera this weekend and I will share bit by bit my
Greek army collection.


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 14:10 pm 
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Hmmmm. This is all rather interesting. So many shades ect. Can't wait to see you guys in person and get my head round this more clearly with a person talk. lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 16:15 pm 
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Real Name: George
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Image

This is the only photo in color known to me.

Also i know from scenograph Mr Fotopoulos that in the film OXI used original material and the uniforms were almost brown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goeEUX-qq0U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXYDKGf_rbw

No pockets! (1920)
Image

_________________
"Only the dead have seen the end of war"
Plato
Greek author & philosopher in Athens (427 BC - 347 BC)

https://www.facebook.com/WW2-Greek-Army ... 751753340/


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 18:15 pm 
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Thats the colour photo I have seen! Guess it is more brown, but its certainly not a green you keep seeing in cartoon photos ect!

But the amount of uniforms and variations ect is just mind boggling. I know you could argue it does mean that 'theoretically' provided you follow one none is wrong, but the question is which one is more popular ect?

Then from my perspective is there a way I can slowly work towards that? Being a university student everything will be more gradual for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 18:26 pm 
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Well we are waiting samples from a vendor in Asia , it is significantly cheaper than in Europe and the breeches (trousers) are correct,if it "passes" our test i' ll let you know :wink:

_________________
"Only the dead have seen the end of war"
Plato
Greek author & philosopher in Athens (427 BC - 347 BC)

https://www.facebook.com/WW2-Greek-Army ... 751753340/


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 18:38 pm 
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Interesting! Looking forward to the results!


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 19:45 pm 
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Sorry, I do not get what you are trying to say Gio above, I think we are saying the same thing
in different terms? If you imply that the Greek Service Dress was brown this is a very controversial
suggestion supported by no reference and no uniform I have seen.
If you mean that it was khaki, which under certain light reflects brownish, you are right,
"Olive" is a dull brownish-green, in case you misunderstood the term. I also fell for this trap,
when I said that the original tunic you showed "looks brown", actually, I can't say until I see
it in real life. Have you actually taken these pictures and handled the piece? Was it so brown?

The above references are not very helpful, and they do not contradict what I said,
that the Greek uniform was olive khaki. The period photo is oversaturated, so it exaggerates the
shades. The OXI film is a very bad tape that has overall strong, unnatural distortion of colours.

Also showing us a photo from Asia Minor is not here not there, as it is 20 years earlier! There were
all sorts of uniforms worn in that war, including with no pockets, only lower pockets,
all four pockets, French uniforms, British uniforms etc. What I said is that I have no photographic
evidence of a 1935-1940 uniform with internal hip pockets (though the tunic you showed us, proves that
at least one existed!!!!)


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 21:41 pm 
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Real Name: George
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[quote="Hoplites"]If you mean that it was khaki, which under certain light reflects brownish, you are right,
"Olive" is a dull brownish-green, in case you misunderstood the term. I also fell for this trap,
when I said that the original tunic you showed "looks brown", actually, I can't say until I see
it in real life. Have you actually taken these pictures and handled the piece? Was it so brown?
[/quote]
That's what i ' m saying!
I took this picture and saw it myself!
The most confusing was the breeches shown above! at first look was grey to me and under certain light conditions they were brownish!

As for internal or external pockets you mean the lower pockets?
Here some more photos
1937
Image
1940 (mixed)
Image
mixed internals and externals.

As for the photo from Asia Minor all i want to say is that in every period you will see differences and mixes in the Greek Army uniforms ,that includes and our days...

_________________
"Only the dead have seen the end of war"
Plato
Greek author & philosopher in Athens (427 BC - 347 BC)

https://www.facebook.com/WW2-Greek-Army ... 751753340/


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 23:40 pm 
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Thanks! Ok agreed. My breeches and tunic
have such a shade as that mentioned. They look grey in the morning sun
brown under incandescent bulb and green under white fluorescent lamps,
go figure. Khaki is a weird colour. :mrgreen:
When you look it under magnifying glass genuine cloth appears
a mixture of fibers of all these three colours.

I have seen these pictures before - a good opportunity to show many tunics together!
I am not convinced about the pockets though.
All the soldiers in the pictures you show appear to wear standard 1930s
tunics with external hip pockets; Internal pockets would not show anything
apart from a lid and no seams and do not bunch at all as these in the pictures.
Maybe (that's a big maybe) the third guy standing has internal pockets? Not sure...

Also interestingly I think I can discern a couple of tunics with the cuffs which
largely disappeared in photographs after the 1930, interesting!

In conslusion, it makes things a bit more interesting (and achievable) for reenactment,
as there was no perfect uniformity.

For some more khaki, I got some stop-frames form ather 2 great movies of the 60s that used
all authentic Army stocks, tell me if you recognise, lol! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 23:51 pm 
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Well at least I don't have to worry about breaking the bank with all the difference. Could even argue its better that we have different tunics as it even appears units had different uniforms...(though I am happy to be corrected :) ).


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:06 am 
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Real Name: George
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Well from all that research my conclusion is that the diachronic admixture between transitions in uniforms is almost a tradition in Greek Army.
I was astonished, when i was in the army as a 2nd Lt, from what was kept in perfect condition in warehouses and still are!
I can only say that our webbing,and not only, for British paras impression are all original and straight from the Greek Army's warehouses!
The photo is from the film "Concert for machineguns" (Κοντσέρτο για πολυβόλα), and the soldiers are from Peiraeus 34 infantry regiment.
We intent to put numbers in our collar tabs for 1st Athens infantry regiment, 5th (western Thessalia) fought on the hill 731 during the italian counterattack (Operation Primavera) or the 51 regiment (detachment of Pindos) who repelled italian division Julia under Colonel Davakis, we have still time to decide.

_________________
"Only the dead have seen the end of war"
Plato
Greek author & philosopher in Athens (427 BC - 347 BC)

https://www.facebook.com/WW2-Greek-Army ... 751753340/


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 Post subject: Re: Greek Army 1940-41
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:31 am 
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I guess it adds a whole new meaning to reduce, reuse, recycle. lol.


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