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 Post subject: Arnhem
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:22 am 
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I was reading about operation market garden the other day and read that the 6th airborne lost 8,000 men, which I have heard before, but was'nt to sure. Also if they did lose 8,000 men how many did that leave left in the division.
Also what were the two SS panzer division's that were at Arnhem.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:44 am 
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The two SS Divisions in the area were the 9th "Hohenstaufen" and 10th "Frundsberg", who formed the 2nd SS Panzer Korp. Although much is made of their presence, they were in fact very depleted in terms of men and machines, as they were resting and refitting after fighting in France. (Hohenstaufen in particular had deliberately immobilised some of their own vehicles, to prevent them being commandeered for other divisions)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:55 am 
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Thanks once again baggy pants, you always seem to have a answer.
Those SS divisons I never knew were under strength, but they still put up some fight. Then again they did have tanks. And the fight the British put up was really one for the book.
If only more time had been taken who knows what could have happened.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:52 am 
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I should recommend that you change whatever you are reading: British 1st Airborne division with 1t Polish Independant parachute brigade were the units involved around Arnhem, not the 6th!. The Division lost about 2600 men KIA, over 5000 were captured and some 2500 were ferried across the Rhine. But these simple statistics do not do justice to the galantry of the Allied troop: they put up a hell of a fight.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:58 am 
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German forces in the Arnhem area at the time of Market Garden

http://www.marketgarden.com/new/statistics/statis5.htm

I also read that there were Dutch militia there also fighting for the Germans.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 16:30 pm 
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Jon Das Reich wrote:
German forces in the Arnhem area at the time of Market Garden

http://www.marketgarden.com/new/statistics/statis5.htm

I also read that there were Dutch militia there also fighting for the Germans.


Yes there was a entire Dutch unit there at the time, the so called Landstorm, I think they were among those actually shooting at the paras when they were still coming down with their chutes, there is some film footage that shows this.
The unit fighting here was the so called third Batallion Landstorm, a unit still in training and badly armed.
Many men who joined did this because of hunger and some were even told they would be joining a police unit, not a combat unit.
Something that happened a lot in the history of the Dutch who ended up fighting on the side of the Germans.
Because of a lack of heavy weapons and very little experience 'Hohenstauffen' commander Harzer initially decided to keep the III./SS-Grenadier Regiment Landstorm Nederland in reserve. He added the unit to 'Sperrverband Spindler". In the night of 20-09 - 21-09 III.SS Landstorm Nederland arrived after a journey by bike from Hoogeveen. On 21-09-1944 the III.Landstorm Nederland was moved to the Betuwe for defensive actions around Elst. On 25-09-1944 Elst was taken by the British 43th Wessex Division.
During the battle of Arnhem the Dutch Landstorm actually also fought their fellow countrymen who were fighting in the Prinses Irene Brigade, on the Allied side.
A large amount of these Landstorm soldiers deserted during the fighting around Elst.

If only the Allies had listened to the Dutch resistance, the battle of Arnhem might have ended differently!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 19:31 pm 
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The Allies appeared to distrust the Dutch Resistance, why was that?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 20:06 pm 
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There are many different reasons.
Around Arnhem montgomery never took prince Bernhard serious enough although he was the main contact person between the allies and the Dutch resistance.
Als the Dutch resistance had suffered a lot because of betrayal, not just traitors but also the infamous Englandspiel where (probably the SOE) sacrificed Dutch SOE agents and resistance members to play a game of giving the germans wrong information.
At the time of Arnhem only a few men at the top of SOE knew about this, to most allies the Dutch resistance had become the victim of the German secret service who played the Englandspiel.
It was silly not to trust the resistance anyway because most of the information they had around Arnhem was intelligence on the area that would warn the Allies that certain routes were unuseable for tanks, etc.
Information that one could have checked easily without risking much.
Perhaps it was also a case of ego, market garden had been planned, everybody was ready and perhaps they didnt want to cancel it because of some resistance people.
In the end its difficult why the allies choose to ignore the information there and then.
Elsewhere the Dutch resistance was trusted and its information used.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 19:14 pm 
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6th airborne!! someones been reading Ambrose!!!
Wasnt it just the British who didnt trust the reliability of local resistence units,Im sure the Yanks and Poles made extensive use of local knowladge. IMO it was probably a combination of the fact that the Dutch resistence had at one point been heaviliy infiltrated by nazis when SOE had started dealing with them ,and that good old english xenephobia and general distrust of "johnny foriegner",which has post war and during the battle been proven entirely unfounded ,after all,the medical help recieved from local Doctors Nurses and teenagers ,not just Mrs Ter Host,should these days be counted as much as assistence given as would have actual armed uprising,which,if Im not mistaken was being activly discoureged by the british for fear of reprisals against civilians by the Germans,a not entirelly immplausable thing to happen given the SS battle groups in the area(and anyone who says"they **all** behaved honerably" should learn what happened to the locals after the battle.).
k,

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Last edited by kostya on Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:30 pm 
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'Sperrverband Spindler". -- the grandson of who is english and in the SBG.. small world init...

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:35 pm 
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so where`s the pictures and video ?
Or is this in the wrong section ?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:00 am 
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here;
k,
ps taken 3 or 4 years ago,sadly Dr Ter host has since passed away.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:28 am 
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Yes true but on the other hand in the Arnhem situation the different resistance groups had one single contact person towards the allies; the Dutch Prince Berhard who was a member of the Allied Armed Forces, who had been in contact with the resistance for some time.
All the information the resistance gathered was given to Mongomery by Berhard.
More importantly some of the most important information the resistance gave was not really about German troops and such but about the area, the types of road, etc.
Something easily checkable and something you could trust local people to know about.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:59 am 
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kostya wrote:
not entirelly immplausable thing to happen given the SS battle groups in the area(and anyone who says"they **all** behaved honerably" should learn what happened to the locals after the battle.).
k,


Ed, can you give details please, as it is this kind of little dig which creates the lack of understanding that many have of some of the Waffen SS divisions. The 9th SS "Hohenstaufen" had an impeccable record. What evidence is there to suggest that they were involved in any naughtiness ? If you are talking about specific occurences, please quote them and the source. I haven't read anything bad about the 9th SS in almost 20 years of reenacting, and your statement lumps them in with anybody who may have commited atrocities against the civilian population. Anyone reading your post would see:

reprisals against civilians - SS battle groups

They then look at the history:

9th and 10th SS in Arnhem

Conclusion:

9th and 10th SS commited attrocities

It is this kind of broad sweeping statement which clouds the facts. Please cite your references, so we can see for ourselves.

Cheers,

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 15:05 pm 
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ooh no,not wanting to stir,well , anything more than a debate.
I did edit my orig a little, but not to much incase it looked 2 faced,no,when I mention reprisals against civilians post battle Im talking about every man woman and child being forced out of their homes into the forests,many dying .Hands up,wouldnt know if it was specifically 9th or 10th ss personel who did the evicting,it could have been luffty or Police or German army(or Dutch nazis) for all i know with out digging out some books but,Arnhem was not the "clean" battle it is sometimes painted as,yes its well known that the 9th SS acted with surprising restraint towards the british airborne in general but I would hope nobody would form an opinion of an entire divisions behaviour during 3(?) years of fighting on the Eastern and Western fronts from one short,granted origionaly slightly vague/missleading post by me. If people were to form an solid opinion based on what one or 2 people on here may say in one or two short posts as opposed to going out and doing the research then IMO theres not much chance theyll learn that much anyway.
Incidently,and im not arguing the point here,i accept the stories Ive heard of the 9th but,can someone explain why? I mean,why amongst all the SS divisions is thier record so spotless? Just why were the British so surprised not to be treated attrociously when they were captured be these particular SS men?
k,
ps,I will make no secret of the fact that it bugs me to be ,almost,defending anyone who wore the sigenrune back then,why should anyone in this country have to,they were our enamies,they would have butchered British civilians had they ever invaded,I go to Arnhem to pay respect to my fellow countrymen(and the Poles and Dutch)the people who were there to liberate not occupy, As to the Germans/SS , I will respect the individual(war criminals aside) but never the orginisations they fought for or under,and as the SBG lads ive done events alongside may know,I do not carry those feelings(of distaste) towards those who choose to portray the SS in an accuratte historical context in the 21st century.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 15:31 pm 
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kostya wrote:
Incidently,and im not arguing the point here,i accept the stories Ive heard of the 9th but,can someone explain why? I mean,why amongst all the SS divisions is thier record so spotless? Just why were the British so surprised not to be treated attrociously when they were captured be these particular SS men?


Perhaps because the division (and Frundsberg, too) was raised late in WWII and was mostly young conscripts. Who knows ? But their record speaks for itself. Normandy, Arnhem, Eastern Front. Spotless record.


kostya wrote:
ps,I will make no secret of the fact that it bugs me to be ,almost,defending anyone who wore the sigenrune back then,why should anyone in this country have to,they were our enamies,they would have butchered British civilians had they ever invaded,I go to Arnhem to pay respect to my fellow countrymen(and the Poles and Dutch)the people who were there to liberate not occupy, As to the Germans/SS , I will respect the individual(war criminals aside) but never the orginisations they fought for or under,and as the SBG lads ive done events alongside may know,I do not carry those feelings(of distaste) towards those who choose to portray the SS in an accuratte historical context in the 21st century.


You will find the 9th SS defended by many of their old enemies. I know of blokes who say they owe their lives to them. One was treated for gangrene by their medics, others were saved from being executed by a group of angry Fallschirmjager. Many more have only ever had good things to say about them. I have never heard an Arnhem veteran speak ill of the "Hohenstaufen" division, yet. They are held in very high regard, and even friendships evolved after the war.

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