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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:09 am 
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According to conventional history women did not served as full SS member but there were about 20 who were and probably wives of senior officers and the likes who recieved honorary memberships. There were also rumours from wartime documents shows there were female branch of SS officers, not simply auxiliary or Helferin, and following Germany's defeat these SS women managed to convince the allies in the war crime tribunal that the SS was closed to women and they did nothing more than follow orders as enlisted prison guards and secretaries to escape punishment.

I have found some wartime photos of women in SS uniforms

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 17:47 pm 
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Think you'll find those women are wearing the tunics of their partner be it husband or bf. Whilst there were women in SS uniforms (two types of SS-helferinnen see the FRAU forum for more info cos I cba to retype it in here), non of the above pictures is the well documented uniform the women wore, of which theres more written evidence of down to kit lists of issue to the women than there is for DRK.

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Last edited by dink on Thu Jan 29, 2009 17:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 17:47 pm 
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now if someone could could these pictures in the sticky perhaps?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 17:48 pm 
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Jenn wrote:
now if someone could could these pictures in the sticky perhaps?


No point Jenn, they ain't accurate for a female in uniform, albeit it they are erm females in uniform. There was quite a trend of the men having pictures of their ladies wearing their kit during WWII and alas the above are some of those pictures.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 20:04 pm 
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dink wrote:
Think you'll find those women are wearing the tunics of their partner be it husband or bf. Whilst there were women in SS uniforms (two types of SS-helferinnen see the FRAU forum for more info cos I cba to retype it in here), non of the above pictures is the well documented uniform the women wore, of which theres more written evidence of down to kit lists of issue to the women than there is for DRK.


I did thought about that too but two reasons made me believe these were indeed female uniforms apart from the 3rd picture. One is that if full SS membership at any stage of the war was closed to women then the rules must be very strict that covers letting wives wearing the uniforms for photoshoot. The second is unless these women are particularly tall with broad shoulders or their menfolks are small and stocky these tunic appears to fit them which suggest they are female cut. I dont know the dates of these pictures but during the defence of Berlin German women was reported to have donned uniforms of soldiers and fought.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 20:56 pm 
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Nice try, but they're all wearing the wrong shirts and the hats don't fit. They are clearly wearing their boyfriends'/husbands' uniforms for the photo. It was very common at the time. A jacket can be tucked at the back and look ok for a photo. The belts of course can also be drawn in.
A better line of research would be to go down the line of that woman who was captured at Arnhem (there was a thread about it somewhere). However, this was an exception, but if you can build a case around it, it should keep the tutt-tutters quiet for a while. Well, ok , not for very long.
Anyway, bugger it, start reenacting the Edelweiss Piraten. That should be interesting, and anything goes!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 21:25 pm 
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shinsakuto wrote:
I did thought about that too but two reasons made me believe these were indeed female uniforms apart from the 3rd picture.


Ah the more attractive of the three :lol: as my furry godmother posted, sadly clothing underneath the uniforms and fit tend to dictate such photographs

shinsakuto wrote:
One is that if full SS membership at any stage of the war was closed to women then the rules must be very strict that covers letting wives wearing the uniforms for photoshoot.


Without seeing the original picture and the reverse to study the paper, I for one wouldn't even hazard a guess (yes a guess) at when the pictures were taken, so am curious as to how you can be so specific? Not convincing me they ain't "staged" pics for the benefit of someone else (this was usually the men folk). Why so many of these photos still exist is anyones guess. Ironic as it maybes, I have a few female photo albums and an array of pictures in my collection. In those that have some chronological form (like the albums) there are no pictures those women chose to keep of them in a male uniform. Add to that theres rules and then theres rules, well I know lots of men that have taken a few things not prescribed by HM on tour with them with our delightful armed services ;) ways and means and I hardly think a photo of someones mrs in their kit is going to be high on priorities if they're being attacked at the front.

shinsakuto wrote:
The second is unless these women are particularly tall with broad shoulders or their menfolks are small and stocky these tunic appears to fit them which suggest they are female cut.


Well I'm FUBAR'd then I fit just about my partners kit, I've even worn his tunic...... for airsofting in before anyone gets any peverse ideas :lol: Much as women come in different shapes and sizes in 2009 beleive it or not they did in the 1930s/40s even in Germany. As for female cut, I'm going to be blunt and rude, You're male aren't you ? cos if you're not well you need to fathom the different ways tunics button up ;) a belt and a clever angle can make things appear more female cut, however they're still most definately male cut tunics.

shinsakuto wrote:
I dont know the dates of these pictures but during the defence of Berlin German women was reported to have donned uniforms of soldiers and fought.


They did, and if you think they stood then posing for a snap shot, well you're dafter than thinking I am for saying they're for their menfolk above ;) . Yes there is evidence of women fighting in the fall of Berlin (and one or two other places when the front landed on their doorstep) I doubt any of them looked as presentable as those above? hardly looking like they've been through a load of rubble fighting or indeed defending.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 21:54 pm 
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i have a story from a veteran from the 7th panzer kp lah

at the end he ended up in a captured t34 somewhere in the east (he did tell me i have forgotten) he was the driver but they didnt have a full crew 2 young girls about 14 turned up and said they wanted to help

the boys told chuckled and told them if they got a uniform they could help!

the girls came back a couple of hours later with kit (he told me camo panzer combis) on they said ok, the girls were shown how to use the MG in the t34 and later that night the attack came and i was told the girls bent the barrell on the MG killing russians :shock:

the tank got hit and they got away he never knew what happened to the girls

he went to a treff in the 80s and the two girls walked in!

strange but true!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 22:07 pm 
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actually now I look at them i can see that they are aren't they? especially the top one. It is still of interest (just never really look at axis uniform I'm afraid).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 0:42 am 
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The first two photos of the tunic were made for female fitting. Most telling is how the shoulders and sleeve fits, also the length relative to the rest of the tunic. There is a possibility that these might be a converted mens uniform.
If they were that meticulous about making a man's uniform to fit a woman using clips and pegs you would think they would try and fasten the belt more smartly too.
While the date is not exactly known of course it can lend to all kind of possibilties including fancy dress, Allied WAC with converted SS uniforms wearing for fun, real SS women or female resistance in last days of war?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 15:25 pm 
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The first picture shows the tunic of SS Postschutz which became part of the Allgemeine SS in March 1942. Furthermore I believe World War I medal ribbons are worn as well.

dink wrote
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Think you'll find those women are wearing the tunics of their partner be it husband or bf.


I totally agree.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 16:12 pm 
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Exactly I'm a tall woman and if I put on a small man's uniform then it fits along the arms and chest. I might want to tailor it so it looks better - which is what they haven't done in the top two pictures for example.
Yup I noticed the button thing too but wasn't sure if this might be like the Waaf - where the uniform was very similar to men's (including buttons). Oh yes the waist hip thing is obviously different which is why the lady at the top looks a bit swamped!


Last edited by Jenn on Fri Jan 30, 2009 18:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 17:05 pm 
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Simpler reasoning is the buttons. Without this arguement of the cut which tbh is a nothing to do with my debate in return, I thought you may have realised the difference between male and female clothing ;) . A male tunic as those in the pictures you posted has teh button holes on the left and thus fastens up left over right, a female tunic would and did button up the opposite way. As said it has nothing to do with the cut and is a rather simple matter that hasn't changed much in erm a long time (dink wanders off to compare modern clothing with Mr Dink and notes it still buttons up the opposite way and wonders why and why have I not wondered this sooner, will the world as I know it now be different if I find the answer :lol: ).

Female tunics were however way more flattering than the male counterparts if one was lucky to be issued one, but the style, position of the pockets, fabric used was a varient of the males and those in wool such as those posted, tended to be the double breasted tunics of which there would be a greater difference to the photos above. Some women were issued male tunics but your looking at women that would be wearing a fleigerbluse and with no collar tabs on it (not even artillery). The M44 tunic worn by women is another male deritive but there again there are differences, buttoning up, waist band level (shorter for females). Meh go research it yourself its not hard :D

Great story kitkat, end of war I guess alsorts went on and my the stories they could no doubt tell (the two ladies). however, its still not the norm and in re-enacting it could be complex (to say the least with groups) with female intakes misinterpreting the history. Not to say noone could do it, but you'd have to be ever so careful not to end up with an influx of women then hopping on the bandwagon of doing that portrayal at an event which has a timescale not appropriate ;).

Jenn I've used some male kit to convert :) and yes you tailor it, especially the trousers as womens waist to hip ratio is different to a mans.

Thanks Beate had no idea of the unit, had just looked at it and saw it glaringly wasn't her uniform.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 19:04 pm 
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I agree it wasa done but i dont think it would fit in

and im sure the girls would only attract male bunny boilers lol

perhaps we should look at dressing a kompanies worth of blokes up as girls!

just like the good old days in 3 para :wink: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 19:22 pm 
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ssparatrooper wrote:
perhaps we should look at dressing a kompanies worth of blokes up as girls!



Not sure if the publics ready for that just yet :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 20:06 pm 
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dink wrote:
Simpler reasoning is the buttons. A male tunic as those in the pictures you posted has teh button holes on the left and thus fastens up left over right, a female tunic would and did button up the opposite way.



Not always the case in every nation though.

Ashley

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