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Could anyone advise who stocks a headlight blackout cowl for a Hotchkiss M201? (Not the wing blackout spotlight) I assume it would be just the same fitment as a Willys or Ford.
I am collecting parts at the moment to turn it into a British Airborne Recce Jeep. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Regards Chris.

Hi Chris

I'm no expert on this subject, but I think the following photo's show that the headlight on one side is replaced by the wing mounted blackout lamp and the two side lights are moved from the grill to the wings. I'm not sure there is a separate blackout cowling for the headlamps. (Happy to be corrected)







Hope this helps

Matt

Hi Matt.
The side lights mounted on the wing were usually 'Butler sidelights', the type mounted to many military vehicles of the period. Sometimes the original marker lights were repositioned onto the wings, but generally found not to be bright enough to comply with British laws of the time, and so the tried and tested Butler lights were used. Photos of the day do show both however (needs must).
Regarding the headlights, apparently they were also made by Butler and was a direct replacement of the US original fitting, it came with the shroud already on it as part of the headlight casing/bowl. The standard wing mounted blackout, which was a much smaller light, was discarded apparently as there was no need for two lights.
I was hoping to find something that would look the part but be easy to remove when driving on the road.
Regards Chris.

With black out regulations and shields on head lights which during the war often had half of the internal reflector painted out as well, worrying about how bright the side lights were would seem a little strange, but you can only go by war-time pictures. Post-war every Jeep remaining in service would have had Butler/Lucas side lights fitted.

Hi Chris

This book is good if your converting your jeep. https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/BRITISH- ... orne+jeeps

I knew I should of dug my copy out before my original reply to your request, so as to get the right answer, but I tried from memory. Anyway what follows is a quote from the book with ref to lighting:

Lights: The blackout driving light was removed, both side lights were taken from the grille and were placed on the wings. This ended the problem of British traffic regulations. There appears no commonality to these mod's in regards to unit use. Certain mod's were at the discretion of the OC MT.


There appears to be no mention of what happened to the blackout light though. I'll keep looking to see if I can find any info on the shrouded light.

Cheers

Matt

Thanks for the replies. I will have to order a copy of Rob's book.
Regarding the sidelights it all makes sense. The Butler sidelights appear to have been used during the War, but maybe they were mainly post war. I was going by what I was told a little while back. Anyhow I have two un-issued old stock Butlers to use for the wings and intend to wire them up as indicators, and leave the original marker lights in the grill.
As I only need the headlight blackout shroud for effect, any ideas as to what could be adapted as a look a like?
Regards Chris.

Hi Chris

Adapting something all depends on your manufacturing (crafting) skills. If like me your imagination far outstrips your abilities, then it might be a faff. You could use wood, tin, cardboard, fibre glass, really anything that can be formed I suppose! The only dimension you need to get right is the measurement to fit over your original light.

I did some more research yesterday, and come to the conclusion that there were quite a few different (British) headlight sizes pre and during the war. Anything from 5" up to 8", 8" mostly for motorcycles. I did find some Butlers lights on the web, and a company in India reproducing 6.5" motorcycle headlights including the blackout shroud in either 6, 12, or 24v. Which could be adapted possibly.

Trouble is this isn't my wheel house, so I could end up giving you duff info, and then feel the wrath of the site trolls. There is a few face book groups that might be of more help: https://www.facebook.com/groups/424561644379118/ https://www.facebook.com/britishairbornejeeps/

Cheers

Matt

Hi Matt. Thanks so much for your imput. Could you post or PM me a link to that Indian firm? Regarding fabricating bits, I have been known to adapt a thing or two in the past, it's just if there is an easy option first, well thats the way to go.
Thanks again.
Chris.

I'm currently converting my jeep from US to British airborne, all I'd say before you get to involved, is decide what unit to portray. Do plenty of research, buy some books and don't rush in.
I spent 3 years researching the information on converting to 42 artillery, Market Garden. Probably as long finding the parts as well.
The airborne jeep books good, but some of the info on the fabrications is post war and a few pictures are incorrectly labelled.
You can get all the fabrication bits in the uk too.

Cheers
Russ

Hi Russ.
Thanks for the reply. I am want to portray airborne recce. I basically know what I want to achieve. I have done the research on this project over the last month or so. I have half the parts already, I am buying the other easy to buy fabricated (in the UK) parts this week. My Jeep is in storage until the garage, I hope to rent, becomes available in a couple of weeks. I am hoping I will be able to finish the project in two to three weeks, in time for manys of the events this summer including Normandy, where I am hoping to do a couple of round canopy parachute jumps.
Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of time to do so much in depth research. I honestly don't think I would spend that much time even if I did. Basically I was diagnosed five months ago with terminal cancer, and at the time given any where between eighteen to twenty four months left to live.
I want to finish my Jeep and drive it. As you can imagine, time is of the essence.
Regards Chris.

Hi Chris,
Firstly I'm so sorry to hear I've your situation and fully understand that you want to get on the road with your Jeep.

I'd go with a standard, stock airborne Jeep, keep it simple and not to much work.

Did originally look at doing a Reece jeep, but very specific unique model, then the Vickers K gun, that's when the idea and the budget stopped!!

If I can be of any assistance, please ask.

Regards
Russ

Chris

I'm sort of stumped about what to say about you're cancer, sorry just doesn't seem enough! I've done some more research and come across these films which appears to be the recce regt at Arnhem/Oosterbeek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFO5ftW8toE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_jODxujP9k

I think the recce were the only ones to have Vickers k's? Anyway if you watch these films you will see (just about quality not that good) that not every jeep had the blackout headlamp fitted, there are variations.

The first clip you could jump to 1.35min to see a good frontal shot (Ooo er missus), and again at 2.10min. The second clip doesn't have many jeep shot's in it, but is fascinating all the same. Sort of made me happy and sad at the same time, seeing the blokes arsing about, smoking fags and hugging girls.

So you could quite legitimately do your jeep without one. Hope this helps. If I can be of any further help let me know.

Matt

Thanks for the replies and advice Guys. I am so looking forward to get started on my little baby... It's basically a nice solid base to start from, and hopefully no 'little' surprises to stall to build. She has to be finished for Normandy, and as well as using her to drive around in this summer (we live in Brighton and I doubt if I will get my wife out of her!) I will be taking her on my annual pilgrimage to Arnhem in Sept.
Despite what I have been told re my health, I have never felt better. Being stage four, I have not been offered any treatment, other than for palliative care towards the end. This leaves me free to explore various other treatments which I am sure will work. So please don't worry too much. I intend to be on this forum for many years to come.
Regards Chris.

PS. Matt... I have agreed a deal with those Indian ebay guys, to buy just the cowl part of that blackout headlight
you saw. I think I will be able to adapt it.

Hi Chris

Glad you have a plan. I'm happy to of helped. If you think I can be helpful again let me know.

Cheers

Matt

After a long absence I logged on and picked up this strand. I am faced with the same issue on a VEP. On the side lights it depends on the date of the vehicle. In May 1941 the CIMT stipulated Butler side lights on the wings to replace the US marker lights. (The army appeared to revert to the May '41 standard after the war.) A July '42 sheet I have has altered this to moving the marker lights to the wings. The headlight which is operational is the N/S one and on the O/S the bulb should be removed (May '41) It is a moot point whether later the headlight itself was removed. The fact it the N/S headlight that is operational is why I believe you see differences in the location of the bridge classification plate. I am still working on how the axle flood was wired up. The early vehicles arrived without a wing mounted blackout light (which was an Ordnance Corps indent for the US Army for most of 1942) Once this was factory fitted it looks to me that the British army accepted the US system (open point on the axle flood) although I have seen photos of the British July '42 standard side light fitment on a vehicle with a B/O light fitted. As a generality, you can fit a Butler headlight but if you do you will need a B-WD-P but I have no idea this wkether the airborne forces did this.

Trust this is of some use to you