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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 13:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 18:16 pm
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Real Name: Neil Robertson
Group: I/II-AA Das Reich (W.A.R.S)
I dont have a problem with people being offended by swastikas and runes.
When they stop being offended, then people will have forgotten.............

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 15:55 pm 
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NKVD. Discuss.

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 16:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 20:44 pm
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Location: Vienna, VA
Group: Polish '39, German/British/Dutch '40, Romanian '42
BrianB wrote:
NKVD. Discuss.


As with anything, it depends on context. My understanding is that NKVD troops were with the regular Soviet armed forces at all times to ensure their reliability. That being the case, having a scenario with Soviet troops but without NKVD would paint an inaccurate picture. I'd raise an eyebrow if somebody wanted to wear an NKVD uniform to a fancy dress party, same as I'd raise an eyebrow at any uniform with a swastika at a fancy dress party. But if it's appropriate to the scenario, I have no problem with NKVD being portrayed, nor with the people portraying them.

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 18:15 pm 
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Group: 95th nacht abt..attached 85th gebirgs
with due repsect this is not about nkvd
please read the titles

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:53 am 
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One reason why not is the darkness.
As cool as reenacting any elite unit, no matter how old or fat you are, is, them buggers have an undeniably bad reputation. Their insignia was even chosen by a psychologist to make them appear sinister. They were.

All the rhetoric in the world will not undo the vile unspeakable acts commited against Jews in camps and ghettos but also against slavic and soviet civilians on the route across russia. The tired argument that other German, and allied troops had blood on their hands too is like when a kid is getting told off and he says, 'johnny was there too' as if to excuse or lessen his guilt.

I can see the attraction of the uniform as that camo is amongst the coolest anywhere but if you try to compartmentalise your motivation for doing it as separate from the ideology that surrounds it, you are possibly a bit of a revisionist.
In choosing to reenact ss you have to accept that whatever your personal politics it will be assumed (maybe wrongly I conceed) by the onlooker that you embrace the same motivation as the men who took the oath.
It is of course perfectly legal to do it in this country (because British and Allied soldiers went to to toe with the real SS) and my take on it all is, knock yourself out but don't get all pissy when people are understandably offended by it.

I have heard what some ss reenactors have to say 'in vino veritas' and the darkness is there, if not there in everyone. Things I have heard don't sound particularly apolitical.

another reason not to reenact ss is that you get idiots like that shagwit 'investigative journalist' bothering you. :?

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:17 am 
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Real Name: Ben M. Previously GiBen
If I did, I would more likely want to reenact wermacht than an SS Badboy.

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 14:12 pm 
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Radar44 wrote:
If I did, I would more likely want to reenact wermacht than an SS Badboy.



why....

please elaborate

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 15:50 pm 
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Real Name: Ben M. Previously GiBen
I don't really know, It is just more of the fact that everyone sees every "German soldier" is classed as a member of the ss or a "Nazi" and I would try to go against that statement. I am not saying all of the ss were Nazi as I know that most of the SS members were in fact prisoners of war with a lets say "get out of jail card".
whermacht is like the SS but its was more subtle and had no political views.

After ready my last post I have just realized I sound like a troll lol.

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 16:31 pm 
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insignia chosen by phsycologist?
I thought they just copied the badges off an old british cavalry regiment?

Ban the death or glory hussars?

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 20:14 pm 
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The 'Death's Head' is a tradition emblem and was worn by many elite units throughout history, including the British 17th/21st Lancers and the Prussian/Brandenburg regiments at Waterloo. The W-SS and general SS wore it for identical reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 20:32 pm 
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lordduvet wrote:
insignia chosen by phsycologist?
I thought they just copied the badges off an old british cavalry regiment?

Ban the death or glory hussars?



the 17th/21st lancers? Sorry but that is a typically emotive response and as predictable a comeback as many of the lame apologies for portraying arm raisers as you ever hear. I never said ban any of it or prevent anyone from doing it.
The reputation of the waffen SS for brutality and allegiance to naziism is legendary and cannot (and should not) be separated from it.
If you choose to do it you buy into that and like it or not you will be judged by what is apparent rather than rehashing the tired old lines that they were just foot soldiers doing their job. Maybe many were but perceptions of that are few and far between.

Even if you are not politcally inclined and condemn the evils associated with the nazi regime..

So if you think that British lancers should be banned based on what I have said you have misunderstood my stance on this. The thread is about why not and my reason why not is that the SS is no more or less an aspect of the nazi administration than striped jim jams in the eye of the beholder.

If you have to mitigate or justify why you do it then it may be wrong for you.

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 20:35 pm 
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Oh and I read some years ago that when uniforms, insignia and awards were designed for the German forces, the value of symbolism was a strong motivator and to that end psychologists were utilised and consulted.

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 20:50 pm 
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Rather sadly, on this particular forum threads such as this are cyclical and are oft repeated every few years. The usernames may change but the same old arguments remain exactly the same.

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 21:03 pm 
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Same everywhere. there are only so many ways to counter or argue a point :D

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 22:29 pm 
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Do you know what sarcasm is?
Did you really think such a brief and almost obvious quip was a suggestion to ban reenacting a group based solely on the most insignificant link?

I could also have suggested banning pirate reenactment for the skull symbology, although not all pirates used the traditional skull and crossbones.

Maybe the more important question isn't why do people do ss. But why do others feel that those that do have to constantly validate their reasons for doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: ss....why not?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 0:08 am 
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I was a member of a W-SS re-enactment group for 9 years, since then I have been re-enacting Kriegsmarine. Does that make me a dyed-in-the-wool-nazi? no, of course it doesn't!

Does WW2 German re-enactment make every one of those who choose to portray WW2 Germans a nazi? no, of course it doesn't, either.. same as those who choose to portray Soviet/NKVD, Japanese, American, British, etc, etc, does it give them the mind-set and attitudes of that era, of course it doesn't.

Same as it doesn't give anyone the same mindset of those who choose to re-enact Greek Hoppolites, Romans, English civil war, American civil war, etc, etc.

We weren't born in those eras and haven't been subjected to the politics and conditions of those eras therefore we only put on a suit, costume or uniform for 8 hours or so. We aren't that particular person or conditioned to be the particular soldier of that era.. so to paint or tar us all with a particular brush is extremely wide of the mark.

For instance, those who choose to portray WW2 American, do they have the same racial attitudes of those of their particular era.. of course not! do those who choose to portray Soviet have the attitudes or mindset of their particular regime? no, of course not. We are all re-enactors and re-enactors alone.

In my 11 years of re-enactment I can honestly say that I have never encountered any extreme attitudes amongst any of my friends and colleagues of whichever army, nationality or unit they have chosen to portray. For instance, the nice Japanese chap who goes to Beltring wearing his Grandfather's uniform each year, does he want to behead every allied re-enactor he sees or to impose the code of Bushido on each and every one of us? of course he doesn't.

We all ought to accept that there isn't anything sinister in what we choose to portray and just accept that we all have different interests, same as everyone has different interests in life in general. I respect those who want to wear the uniform of the 101st Airborne, for instance, but I don't have that interest, myself.

Ultimately, those who want to believe that those of us who choose to wear the uniform of the W-SS, Kriegsmarine, DAK, Fallschirmjager, Dagenham Girl Pipers, etc, etc, will always want to believe that we are dyed-in-the-wool-nazis personified or want to resurrect the 3rd Reich and believe that there is something sinister going on in the background.. Sorry to disappoint but I can assure them that this isn't the case.

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