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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:03 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 20:17 pm
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Location: Barnsley, S.Yorks.
Real Name: Chris Ingamells
Group: 4th Indian Division Living History Group
Hi,

Please have a look at the announcement from the British Airsoft Club below. I have been a member of the BAC from just after it started & have been asked to take on the role as 'Re-enactors Representative' to help with the role-out of membership to re-enactors.

BAC is a new & forward looking organisation & their benefits of membership are equally useful for both Airsoft users as well as Re-enactors.

There is certainly no 'hard sell' about BAC membership but it is available to genuine re-enactors if they want it. The advantages of having a single Photo ID card to prove re-enactor status & the inclusion on a national database as a means of proving that you meet the requirements of the VCR act could make the purchase of RIFs far simpler.
Please read on & let me know what you think.

Thanks, :D
Chris.

IMPORTANT: British Airsoft Club
(Re-enactors Membership)

The British
Airsoft Club (BAC) is extending its membership to genuine re-enactors from
today!

The British Airsoft Club (BAC) has been
formed to provide the airsoft market with an alternative to the UKARA
system to enable a safe method of selling and purchasing Realistic
Imitation Firearms (RIF).

The primary responsibilities of the club will be the registration of legitimate Airsoft players and legitimate Re-enactors to comply with the provisions of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, Statutory Instrument 2007 No 2606, Arms and Ammunition, and the defence outlined in section 36-38 of Home Office circular 31/2007.

It is widely known that re-enactors of historical events, who are covered by the appropriate third party public liability insurance, have a defence in law for the purchase of RIFs.
However, many re-enactors have difficulties in providing adequate proof of status to the retailer for the purchase RIF’s. This can make the purchasing process time consuming and difficult.
The BAC is proud to offer membership to genuine re-enactors that will
allow them to purchase RIF’s without restriction.

The yearly fee for BAC registration is £6.99 which is great value considering the advantages of membership.
BAC is a 'Not for Profit' organisation.


Benefits of BAC membership:


Provide easily verifiable proof of re-enactor status, thus making
purchase of RIF a simple process

Be registered on a national online database

Be issued with a plastic photographic ID card with bar code and unique
membership number

Automatic membership renewal if terms and conditions are met

Eligibility to receive special offers and discounts from participating
retailers and Airsoft sites

In addition, the BAC has taken legal advice from Mr
Nicholas Doherty regarding his expert legal opinion on the defence
provided by the BAC to airsoft retailers of RIF and on the robustness of
the BAC systems. Mr Doherty is the leading barrister regarding
firearms law in the United Kingdom. He is also co-author of the
‘The British Firearms Law Handbook’ written in 2011. This is
the leading work for lawyers and the public regarding firearms law and
licensing in the UK.

Please visit -
http://www.britishairsofclub.co.uk
or
http://www.facebook.com/britishairsoftclub
for further information.

_________________
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Sir Winston Churchill
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Also Sir Winston Churchill


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:20 am
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Real Name: Sean Tighe
Group: AFRA
How does the BAC cover the 3rd party insurance question?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 13:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 20:17 pm
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Location: Barnsley, S.Yorks.
Real Name: Chris Ingamells
Group: 4th Indian Division Living History Group
Hi,
It would be covered in the same way as they do for Airsofters.
Individuals or groups wishing to join BAC would simply have to supply an image copy of their PLI.
These are then verified with the insurance company as they are with the airsoft PLI policies.
It's a fairly quick & efficient system which is working well at the moment.

_________________
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Sir Winston Churchill
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Also Sir Winston Churchill


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 15:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:18 am
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Location: Kent
Real Name: Andy
Group: Za Oberonyu! 13th GRD and WPFG
So I pay £6.99 per year on top of my PLI so someone can show HMRC my PLI certificate?

I can't see why its required. Your group/umbrella is perfectly capable of this surely. I'd be disappointed if they couldn't manage this admin piece.

_________________
"I saw cities in Europe that were practically untouched by the war, countries that capitulated to the more powerful enemies even before war was declared, but we are not like that. Our grandfathers, our fathers, our older generation, our great leaders, fought here for each building, for each street." - First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on the 70th anniversary of victory at Stalingrad


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 15:21 pm 
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Real Name: Andy
Group: Za Oberonyu! 13th GRD and WPFG
BTW how do you cope with figuring out if my PLI covers me? I could show you any PLI cert, almost certainly it will not have group members named on it.

Giving this sort of a job to people outside of your group is pretty dicey I think. The trail cannot be 100% and survive scrutiny.

_________________
"I saw cities in Europe that were practically untouched by the war, countries that capitulated to the more powerful enemies even before war was declared, but we are not like that. Our grandfathers, our fathers, our older generation, our great leaders, fought here for each building, for each street." - First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on the 70th anniversary of victory at Stalingrad


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 19:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 15:27 pm
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Location: West Yorks
Real Name: Allen
Group: Independant
Interesting little experiment ..

Firstly the link on the post didn't work but I managed to get onto the airsoft website anyway ..

Registered with the group, and got an activation mail, but guess what, the activation link didnt work, so replied to the activation mail telling them that but got no answer ..??

I copied and pasted the activation link and presto got a page saying the account had been activated, so then proceeded to register as a re-enactor accordingly .. filled the in the form, sent the payment etc .. incidentally when I made the payment it turns out it automatically sets up a yearly payment schedule with paypal .. ??

On the re-enactor registration form where it asks for your group all it has is two drop down links which frankly I didn't understand so I clicked the bottom one .. there is no provision for an individual to actually name their group, or, and perhaps more importantly, you cannot tell them where and when you are an Independant .. quite how they can therefore verify a person as a genuine re-enactor is a bit of a mystery, and of course, how do you verify an independant when and where there is no group to check up with ..??

I have e-mailed them explaining the above but thus far have again had no reply ... I will give it a little longer but in the absence of any communication from them I will then ask for my money back and delete my membership.

Someone has had a reasonable idea on the face it perhaps .. but it doesn't seem to have been thought through fully, and with seemingly no provision for independant re-enactors, perhaps they don't know as much about actual re-enactment as they seem to think they do ... !!

Personal experience here right now .. an experiment more than anything as I say, be interesting to see if I do get a reply and what that reply is.

_________________
War Correspondent
United Press
'The Writing 69th'
8th USAAF
Somewhere in England

... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 19:24 pm 
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Real Name: boris bagbogbigban
now, if it had re-enactment in the title, was linked to an insurance provider, maybe cost £15 and also the organisation managed to get themselves invited to all the secret meetings at the Home Office!

actually - this could be the start of something beautiful -----

)must be something wrong if Cboy and me agree twice in a month

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 19:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 20:17 pm
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Location: Barnsley, S.Yorks.
Real Name: Chris Ingamells
Group: 4th Indian Division Living History Group
Andy,

We fully accept that not everyone will benefit from BAC membership.
If, whenever you want to buy a RIF, you have available -

1/ Proof of membership of a genuine re-enactment group &
2/ A copy of your group or individual PLI then you should be fine.

I have bought RIFs with this proof before.
However, many smaller re-enactment groups as well as some larger ones, do not have group menbership cards & not everyone has readiliy available a paper copy of their PLI.

To put your mind at rest over standing up to scrutiny, the BAC has 'ironed out' all of the potential early problems over this with the airsofters.
Applications for re-enactment membership will have their re-enactment group membership checked with their group's admin or lead member. PLI documents with be verified by contacting the insurance company to ensure that the PLI is valid for re-enactment & also current.
So, if BAC is able to validate genuine group membership & PLI cover then the requirements of the VCR Act are met.

Hopefully, what will happen is that if some of the larger WWII re-enactment organisations will work along with us, then BAC will already have records of PLI cover available. So, valid group membership will be the main issue to validate. This has to be done at the moment by any RIF dealer selling a RIF to a re-enactor. Having a recognised photo ID card to prove this up front cold be a very useful item to have.

As I have already explained, there is certainly no 'Hard Sell' for BAC membership for re-enactors. However, for those who might find it useful, the door is now open.

The other Airsoft organisation that also holds a database is UKARA. (United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association) However, UKARA is only applicable to Airsoft Skirmishers who are members of UKARA registered Airsoft sites & who shoot at each other during Airsoft skirmishes. Many genuine & legal Airsofters, who shoot in legal 'permitted activities' cannot join UKARA because their Airsoft activities do not meet the narrow requirements of UKARA. Also, UKARA in no way, covers membership for those who only re-enact.
BAC is a more inclusive organisation & wants to encourage membership for those taking part on other 'permitted activities' & be able to prove their VCR Act compliance.

Cheers, :D
Chris.

_________________
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Sir Winston Churchill
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Also Sir Winston Churchill


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 19:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 20:17 pm
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Location: Barnsley, S.Yorks.
Real Name: Chris Ingamells
Group: 4th Indian Division Living History Group
To answer some of your other questions the following might help.

I have simply 'copied & pasted' some of the discussions & advice that the BAC have been sharing in working out how to set up Re-enactor membership & ensure that we meet the tightest scrutiny.
I apologise for the 'long winded' way in which this is presented but this will hopefully illustrate BAC's thoroughness & intention to 'get this right.'

BAC discussion: -

On the issue of group membership: -

2/ How should membership of a re-enactment group be proved?
This is a difficult one, especially for small groups.
As membership cards/documentation is not always available, BAC will need to work out what level of proof & from whom, we can accept as proof of membership of a genuine re-enactment group.
We were thinking that they could be members of a national group such as NAReS or be a properly consituted club with rules and regulations. Once approved, the reenactment group could then be part of the BAC in the same way as a 'site'. The re-enactor then registers themselves and lists the reenactment group that they are a member of. The reenactment group would then confirm the re=enactor's status. Do you think this could work?

Only a small number of re-enactment groups are members of a larger 'umbrella' organisation such as NAReS. As there is often no real need for small groups to join a larger organisation, insisting on this would preclude many small re-enactment groups from joining BAC.
It is very important that BAC validates re-enactor status by one of a number of means.
Also the verification of the group as a genuine re-enactment organisation is important.
Suggestions for this could be: -

• First & foremost, 3rd Party PLI for this individual or group to take part in re-enactment events is a 'must have.'
• Membership of NAReS, AFRA etc (which would be the ideal)
• Membership Card or other documentary evidence of membership of a re-enactment group. Ideally, a photo ID membership card which could be backed up for a retailer by showing further photo ID such as a photo driving license.
• A contact name telephone number &/or e-mail address for a re-enactment group leader who can verify membership of a re-enactment group.
• A re-enactment group website or even 'Facebook' page would be a good means of verifying status of the group. Example - https://www.facebook.com/pages/(Group identoty removed for this example)
• A sample contract for a re-enactment group to take part/display at an organised re-enactment/living history event.
I have attached a 'word document to this e-mail showing an example of a typical re-enactment group contract to take part in an organised event.

Is it safe to agree that a copy of the groups PLI in addition to one or more of the above means of verification should be enough accept a re-enactor as a member of BAC?
BAC is going to have to be fairly 'flexible' but still thorough in verifying genuine re-enactor status. This way, BAC membership will be available to a far greater number of re-enactors.


On the issue of PLI: -

3/ Insurance - how can possession of 3rd Part PLI be proved?
The onus here must be on the individual applicant to gain a copy of their insurance documentation from their group leader. However, membership of a larger organisation such as NAReS might imply that insurance is an integral part of membership. A bit more research is required here.

We have two possible options for this I think. The reenactment groups could have their own insurance. We are adding a file upload button onto the database so PLI can be included alongside the reenactment group profile. There will also be the option for players to upload their own PLI if this is held by the players rather than the group. Either the group or individual reenactor could have insurance I think.

Fully agree. Based on the legal statement above which states: -

"(b)two or more persons, at least one of whom holds such public liability insurance."

Individual or group insurance should both be acceptable. If the BAC re-enactor applicant can send either a paper or preferably, electric copy of the PLI certificate & prove that they are either the person named in the PLI document or a member of the re-enactment group named, then PLI cover is proved.

_________________
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Sir Winston Churchill
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Also Sir Winston Churchill


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 19:57 pm 
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No comments on my post Chris .. not trying to cause trouble and initially it was a genuine application, turned into a little experiment with the problems I encountered.

I just logged into the site again and it says membership is (still) inactive ... I have supplied a copy of my current, and valid, PLI, but as I said being an independant how are they going to verify I am a genuine re-enactor .. had I been a member of a group, having no provision to actually name a group, again how can they verify group membership ..??

_________________
War Correspondent
United Press
'The Writing 69th'
8th USAAF
Somewhere in England

... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 20:04 pm 
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Real Name: boris bagbogbigban
Chris

Small Acorns and big trees etc. Anything that can get 2 similarly inclined but self-centred hobbies to work together must be good.

Andy

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If you have the last word and no one heard it - Did it happen? https://youtu.be/mQZmCJUSC6g


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 20:16 pm 
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They say things come in three's, so lets make it three ...

Couldn't agree more and all for it, just that on a practical basis I have encountered the 'glitches' as stated above .. and still waiting for a reply from them too .??

_________________
War Correspondent
United Press
'The Writing 69th'
8th USAAF
Somewhere in England

... " I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals " ...

... " I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them " ...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 20:36 pm 
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I can just see the validity of pli being trying to be handled by a third party as a massive minefield. It's different for the skirmish defence and ukara.

_________________
"I saw cities in Europe that were practically untouched by the war, countries that capitulated to the more powerful enemies even before war was declared, but we are not like that. Our grandfathers, our fathers, our older generation, our great leaders, fought here for each building, for each street." - First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on the 70th anniversary of victory at Stalingrad


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:38 am 
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Real Name: Sean Tighe
Group: AFRA
Why would AFRA members need to join?
They already have a membership card and a long history of success with the purchase and even import of RIFS.
£6 they dont need to spend on another card.

_________________
http://www.afra.org.uk
better by design
Image
"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "
"Truth is incontrovertible, ignorance can deride it, panic may resent it, malice may destroy it, but there it is."


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 16:39 pm 
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Real Name: Andy Wood
Group: 16PFA / AFRA
LeMaitre wrote:
Why would AFRA members need to join?
They already have a membership card and a long history of success with the purchase and even import of RIFS.
£6 they dont need to spend on another card.

Have to agree Sean, I've found AFRA suit my needs perfectly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 0:51 am 
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Location: Barnsley, S.Yorks.
Real Name: Chris Ingamells
Group: 4th Indian Division Living History Group
I agree fully with Sean & Andy.
For re-enactors fortunate enough to have an organisation such as AFRA behind them, there might well be no need for BAC membership.
However, for many re-enactors who don't have the benefit of membership cards & readily available confirmation of group membership, BAC is able to verify genuine re-enactor status & provide proof of this.
As I have explained, "There is certainly no 'hard sell' about BAC membership but it is available to genuine re-enactors if they want it."
Also "Only a small number of re-enactment groups are members of a larger 'umbrella' organisation such as NAReS. (or AFRA) As there is often no real need for small groups to join a larger organisation."
The BAC is certainly NOT wanting to go into competition with AFRA, NAReS, or any other established re-enactment organisation for membership. BAC would love to work alongside these established organisations & indeed encourage membership of them.
BAC is simply there for those re-enactors who feel that they would benefit from having as national group which can provide verification of VCR Act compliance for the purchase of RIFs.
BAC would very much value links with groups such as AFRA or NAReS to see if there is any way that we can work together & support each other.


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