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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 0:22 am 
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I've read posts from various forums about German use of foreign MG's along the Atlantic Wall. Does anyone have any information/photos of the Russian Maxim being used? I know that some of the Ost Truppen were supplied with them, but were they available to regular German units as well? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:14 am 
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You see a lot of ex-French Machine Guns on the Atlantic Wall but I have not observed any M1910 Maxims.

If you have any pictures of use away from the Eastern Front I would be intertested to see.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:28 am 
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Is it a possibility that MG08s were used? After all, they are the same weapon?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:18 pm 
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Oggy wrote:
Is it a possibility that MG08s were used? After all, they are the same weapon?


I have seen a MG08 in photos together with just about every other type of German machine gun ever made (including aircraft ones!) but never a Soviet M1910. The M1910 stands out because its on the Sokolov mount, which is pretty unique.

The use of any Soviet weaponry would be limited on the Western front as their 7.62x54R round would have to be brought all the way over from the East, which is kinda logistically heavy.

Most OstTruppen units were equipped with German weapons when they were moved to the Western Front after the defeat at Stalingrad.

Having said that, I have a box of Soviet 7.62 rounds recovered from a hole in a wall in the Netherlands! The box is the standard Soviet issue cardboard box tied up with string.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:37 pm 
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I know a man....

Who has recoverd various Russian rounds in yes.... Normandy.....

Will check what...

Or he may post himself.... :wink:

as for shipping rounds 1/2 way round the world....

Indian made 303 found on English ranges....

and I bet you can find British 303 in India.....

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 19:29 pm 
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I read a post on a forum a while back about a guy that traveled to France to visit the Normandy gun emplacements. He was surprised to find a Russian Maxim on a Sokolov mount in the display area. When he enquired about it, they said that it was used by an OstBattalion. Unfortunately, I can't recall what forum I found it on.

JC


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 20:15 pm 
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That might be the case, but I have seen a lot of old crap in some of those museums, including "ost truppen" uniforms that have 1950's Soviet shoulder boards on them....

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 21:02 pm 
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I recovered 100 plus russian rounds along with German 7.92 normal and tracer and a mix of m1 carbine and 3006 rounds near some untouched bunkers at Gefosse fontenay last month! It stumped us at first but we were then told that a lot of the Ost battalions had been equipped with Russian weapons - but it certainly was a surprise when we dug them up by the mg pits!!!
Chris

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 21:21 pm 
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Curioser and curioser...Could the M1910 be mounted on anything other than the Sokolov Mount? Possibly the MG08 Tripod adapted for it? I'm no expert on the Fortifications in Normandy, but were there ever fixed (the same as Arty pieces) positions?

_________________
Lo, There Do I See My Father
Lo, There Do I See My Mother, My Sisters And My Brothers
Lo, There Do I See My People, Back To The Beginning
Lo, There Do They Call To Me, And Beg Me To Take My Place
In The Halls Of Valhalla, Where the Brave Shall Live Forever

In the chaos of battle, when the ground beneath your feet is a slurry of blood, puke, p**s and the entrails of friends and enemies alike, it's easy to turn to the gods for salvation. But it's soldiers who do the fighting, and soldiers who do the dying, and the gods never get their feet wet.

One enemy is never enough, two is far too many
"Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid."
Jo Hukam


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 22:53 pm 
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Thing is, of all of the 100% definitely identifiable photos of Osttruppen on the Western Front, I have only ever seen ONE Soviet weapon in use - the DP28. Now obviously this uses the 7.62x54R catridge but it is strange that you would use that when every other weapon the guys had was German 7.92....

And believe me, I've studied quite a few Osttruppen photos!!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:56 am 
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Not a Maxim but a good photo of Forrest Guth with a Degtyarev LMG in the De Trez book


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:00 am 
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I'll post a pic of some of the rounds perhaps that may shed some light but yes quite a mystery.................... You should have seen us twich when we saw the grenade spoon sticking out of the earth!!!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:00 am 
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Yes, a DP as I said :D

But by the sounds of it in a photo with a bunch of Yanks - so I've not seen that photo before :D

*edit* Fritz - they will just be the standard Soviet rifle round:

https://www.fallingpixel.com/products/6769/mains/1n.JPG

Used in rifles, Maxims, DP, DT, SVD, RPD and PKM (plus others!)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:29 am 
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I saw a relic Krag Rifle for sale at a militaria fair about 2 years back and the seller said he picked it up off a farmer in Normandy. Not reallty related to the whole Russian weapons thing but it does show there were non standard weapons there.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 13:22 pm 
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Andrei Kozlov wrote:
Thing is, of all of the 100% definitely identifiable photos of Osttruppen on the Western Front, I have only ever seen ONE Soviet weapon in use - the DP28. Now obviously this uses the 7.62x54R catridge but it is strange that you would use that when every other weapon the guys had was German 7.92....

And believe me, I've studied quite a few Osttruppen photos!!


Been doing a bit of digging and I found this comment on a wargames forum.....

Quote:
I have read a reference to Maxims being used by Ost-Bataillon 642 (stationed either side of the Orne, around Ranville and Benouville) attached to Grenadier-Regiment 736 of 716. Infanterie-Division. They also had some Russian 45mm AT guns.


So, find a TO&E for 642 and you're away I reckon....

OTOH maybe they've been drinking too much of the the Maxim's 1910 Calvados! :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 13:49 pm 
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I can have another good look at the Axis Europa books I have if you want... been a while since I studied them, but these are the only detailed published documents on OstTruppen I am aware of, other than "Signal" which is widely discredited as propaganda BS

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