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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:53 am 
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Shutzen, like it's modern equivalent is to protect against HEAT or standoff rounds, Bazooka, Faust, Shreck, RPG…. etc

They initiate the round the vapour jet is formed punches though the skirt and dissipates in the space between the skirt and the armour, yes you may lose the skirt…

This is why you see mesh skirts and ‘bar’ skirts as well they initiate the RPG…..

Look at the vehicle in Afghan, Iraq they are reusing this technology to defeat RPGs…

Now Reactive armour is……….and Chobam... well thats a Secret....

All armour has its weakness and some can be defeated with Tandem rounds, kinetic rounds, rod rounds…….

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:10 pm 
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Reactive isn't secret - Google Isreali Blazer Armour:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:14 pm 
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No....

But Chobam (sp) is... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:35 pm 
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LAH 650 wrote:
No....

But Chobam (sp) is... :wink:

dunno bout that :wink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour

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In the chaos of battle, when the ground beneath your feet is a slurry of blood, puke, p**s and the entrails of friends and enemies alike, it's easy to turn to the gods for salvation. But it's soldiers who do the fighting, and soldiers who do the dying, and the gods never get their feet wet.

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 13:42 pm 
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LAH 650 wrote:
Shutzen, like it's modern equivalent is to protect against HEAT or standoff rounds, Bazooka, Faust, Shreck, RPG…. etc


Golly, there is still someone who believes that...

I thought everyone had now heard how this made it into text books by authors recycling other's works into their own but based on someone's incorrect theory in the first place...

Those plates were to delfect Soviet PTRD and PTRS 14.5mm AP rounds.... definitely 100% that is what they were for.

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 13:56 pm 
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So the Mesh shutzen you see on PzIVH/J's mmmmmmm

Image

Image

Even our red allies used 'skirts' to stop a faust or two...

or was it all an accindent of design.....

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Last edited by LAH 650 on Thu Oct 02, 2008 14:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 13:59 pm 
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Or am I just miss-read all these years....

Why if it's to stop Russian rounds do we see it in the West?

Or is it another Zimmerit, done with question....

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 15:29 pm 
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In German use it was originally to stop ATR rounds.... the fact that it also later stopped HEAT rocket warheads was just a lucky coincidence.

The panzerfaust was introduced in October 1943, when was the scurtzen (sp?) first seen?

The Soviet use of it was copying the Germans... after they observed how captured panzerfausts were defeated by the very same stuff designed to stop the ATR rounds.

The Soviets used a lot of captured panzerfausts...

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 19:41 pm 
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Panzer IVG 1943....

Panzer III retro fit 1943

Panther D 1943

PanzerShreck 1943...

PTRD from day one to the last day..... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 21:19 pm 
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Must have got bored with PTRD's killing their vehicles after 2 years 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:08 am 
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Bazooka... 1918....

M1A1 1942.... Op Torch tc...

In late 1942, numbers of early-production American M1 bazookas were captured by German troops from Russian forces who had been given quantities of the bazooka under Lend-Lease.The Germans promptly copied the weapon, and increased the diameter of its warhead to 8.8 mm. In German service, the bazooka was popularly known as the Panzerschreck. ......

Gew.Pz.Gr.30 & Große Gewehrpanzergranate, HEAT Rifle Grenades 1942.....

Lots of pre '43 hollow charge items .....

If it was just a reaction to the PTRD why no skirts before 1943...... if as you asy they lost plenty of Panzers to them.....

Do you have/know of figures to support the German losses/Russian claims.... would like to see them....

Like the RAF claims for Tiffies.... actual AFV loss was minimal...

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 14:59 pm 
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No I think the Germans dismissed the idea of anti-tank rifles pre-WW2.

What they weren't really aware of was the way in which the Soviets were to use them.

Soviet AT defence was always layered, never piecemeal.

Big AT guns fire, close small AT guns fire, ATR's fire and finally infantry use grenade bundles/AT mines/AT Grenades/Molotovs.

Also the command of such an anti-tank engagement was well disciplined - at each stage a particular enemy tank is targetted and all weapons fire on that single target till it burns or explodes.

This is quite contrary to German and other Allied tactics...

The Soviets kept this idea of the layered AT defence right up til 1991...

I've heard NATO soldiers say "my vehicle can survive a RPG hit", well, yes maybe one, but what you would be hit with would be a wave of RPG rounds until you burn or explode...

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 am 
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At Kursk in 1943, Soviets used anti-tank guns as an important element of the 'defence in depth' system, and it was the first time this major change in Soviet tactics was employed in a battle.

In tank sensitive areas, they would usually build an anti-tank fire zone in front of the forward line and in the entire depth of the defence zone, some 15 to 20km in depth. The anti-tank defence zone itself was sometimes 30 to 35km deep. Company anti-tank strong points had four to six anti-tank guns, 15 to 20 anti-tank rifles, and several tanks or SU's. The Soviets placed six company anti-tank strongpoints per km of front in areas favourable for tank attacks, providing 25 to 30 guns per km. In addition, and anti-tank reserve of on or two batteries (four or eight guns) was provided for each rifle regiment, and tank destroyer battalion (12 guns) for each division and a tank destroyer regiment (20 guns) for each rifle corps. The result was a very heavy defensive line.

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 13:21 pm 
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The 1942 booklet "Destroy Fascist Tanks with the Anti Tank Rifle!"

Link - http://www.battlefield.ru/content/view/280/123/lang,en/

Has all the detail you need, including a nice diagram of where to target a tank, to explain why the skirts were introduced to improve protection against ATRs.

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 14:19 pm 
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mmmmmmmm

Spaced armour or skirts…..

Are we talking A or B….

Quote:
From the point of view of attack, the effectiveness of capped (A.P.C.) and uncapped (A.P.) projectiles varies in different calibers owing to a differing balance of advantages and disadvantages. Though a cap tends to preserve the point of the ogive (the curved and pointed head of the projectile) during perforation of the front plate, the cap itself is destroyed by the same action, and thus kinetic energy is wasted. In one caliber the reduction of energy due to loss of the cap before reaching the interior plate may result in failure to perforate, whereas in a larger caliber the loss may have a less pronounced effect on the ultimate performance, resulting in perforation of 2 plates of the same quality and equally well matched.
It is true that an A.P. or A.P.C. shot tends to turn towards the normal on perforating a plate, but in the case of spaced armor any advantage which might be gained thereby is likely to be neutralized by the acquisition of a transverse angular velocity which may result in increased yaw. For this effect to be appreciable, plates should be separated by a distance of at least one caliber.


Later model Panzer IIIs for example have both… the obvious Shutzen and extra armour bolted to the front and sides which is spaced…

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 Post subject: Re: Magnetic grenades?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 15:13 pm 
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But you find lots of bizarre things if you look hard enough - the T80U's "Kontakt" reactive armour was discovered to be able to defeat the M829 APFSDS round used by the Leopard and M1 Abrams when the Germans tested vehicles aquired after the end of the Cold War on their gun ranges. The Americans panicked somewhat and upgraded the M829 round to cope with it.

Was "Kontakt" designed to defeat kinetic rounds? Of course not, it was an anti-HEAT round system, but as a by product it also defeated something far more lethal. I don't think even the Soviets were aware of this!

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