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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 23:37 pm 
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LOL!

Would be great if we could get it to link somewhere though wouldn't it?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:47 am 
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Cor, this has moved on a tad!

Now I'm back on a reliable connection I was going to post of the wounding properties of triangular & cruciform bayonets - they don't just make simple puncture wounds that's why it's the most popular bayonet design for about 200 years.

But mindful of being a founder member of Huw's new website :oops: :oops: I've decided to give it a rest - life's too short :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 19:45 pm 
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Cruciform design is used as it combines virtues of strength and lightness. As stated no shape of bayonet will guarantee a sucking chest wound and no bayonet should ever be stuck into an opponents ribs as its a t*** to get out again.

I have rehearsed siting chest-drains on a sheeps carcass you make a wound between the ribs then dissect down to the chest cavity...

When I had finished the lad who was instructing me said 'That was easy wasn't it?' to which I concurred.

He then leaned his whole weight on the carcass compressing the ribs together and said; 'Try now, thats what a real chest is like'.

Bugger me, but last year I had to talk a doctor through the procedure when he started to faff a bit, he got me to keep the wound open with my index finger while he sited the drain. Low and behold the instructor was right the vital intercostal muscles DO compress the ribs together like a vice, so how would you extract a bayonet?


Also many years ago when I served with the 'Defence Farce' at RAF St Athan one of our instructors, an ex-marine taught unarmed combat and also instructed us on bayonet fencing with an SLR and fixed bayonet. Lesson 1: 'Don't stick 'em in the ribs, you won't get it out again.


If you have a reference for the relative merits of bayonet shape against wound-type I really would like to read it.

Though how they established the 'killing shape' is a mystery to me as what conflicts have ever yielded large numbers of casualties for study?

Ah yes, I am reliably informed that the sights of the long-arms of all the major powers were calibrated to take account of their being fired at long ranges with a fixed bayonet.


Yours everohfuckI'vedoneitagainhowcouldIbesofuckingsadaaaargh!!!


Huw.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 19:49 pm 
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Latest edition of KZ front cover: two riflemen 77km from Berlin NO bayonets reversed or otherwise.


Allright, allright I'll stop in a minute........


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 23:20 pm 
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Well the RKKA hand to hand manual (includes all sorts of handy training tips in using the rifle & bayonet, e-tool & even the long handled engineer spade) shows the method for extracting the bayonet as this...

Once you've got the bayonet stuck in someone's chest you push the rear of the weapon downwards with your right hand and then recover from the lunge position drawing the rifle with bayonet backwards as you do so.

Anyway on to the funny shapes old bayonets come in.

The triangular/cruciform cross section does a couple of things. First it makes an irregular hole that doesn't easily close back up once you've got the foreign body out. This is compounded by the fact the bayonet itself tapers, rather than being parallel edged which forces the lips(?) of the wound apart and, because the edges themselves aren't actually sharp tears the flesh rather than cuts it. Maybe I was overstating the case when I said a sucking chest wound but these old style bayonets inflict nasty wounds that don't repair themsleves and even with intervention are difficult to deal with.

Having said that I agree with Andy and most advances to contact will have rarely achieved that because if you look determined enough the other side usually seems to have bugged out.

Zaloga's Soviet Army Uniforms of WW2 - scouting group on the edge of a Polish village in 1944 with fixed bayonets and the first RKKA men into Vienna have fixed bayonets though, to be fair, at least one weapon (and possibly more) is an M44 carbine. :wink:

Shall we stop now because I think I'll have to get this anorak surgically removed! :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 23:36 pm 
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As I tried to make clear in my earlier posts that the trend I noted towards decreased ayonet usage is not entirely borne out in the photos. Classic one in the Zaloga book: the lads in rubber boats and flotation rings with fixed bayonets (late '43).

Would love to see the manual if poss. Any chance of a photocopy?

Final point and I'll shut me craw: Virtually all bayonet charges determined or not are broken by firepower. Look at the historical record of two world wars.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 23:41 pm 
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Vladim has a photocopy of the manual that he bought from Ostfront - I'll ask him.

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"You may not be able to change the world, but at least you can embarrass the guilty" Jessica Mitford

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 23:52 pm 
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Coolio, cheers for that!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 23:54 pm 
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Aha yes now that I think. Are you lot still up for a medicky scenario only Ray is at a loose end for a 'do' in June. Maybe it would be a good time for a joint venture if we can get a gig?


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