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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 23:04 pm 
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so the photo with the carbines cant be taken as fact nor can most soviet photos, which was one of my points, personally i still love the lovely long mosin with a fixed bayonet charging towards german tanks shouting for all im worth, then realistically being gunned down

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 23:12 pm 
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No one photo can be seen as anything more than what the photo was of - just as my Comrades said before.

If a photo like this shows lots of neatly turned out troops with a brand new weapon system, its for a very good reason...

There are candid personal photos of Soviet soldiers, but this aint one of them ;-)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:51 am 
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Agreed!

Corporal Bang wrote:
Once again, from Osprey 216 - the standard Soviet section was 9 men. The NCO had an SMG, one man had a DP light machine gun, and the rest were armed with rifles. What the Soviet army were good at doing were creating units entirely equipped with SMG's and these would be the Motor "Rifle" (a rather misleading title therefore!) Companies - the troops you generally see as the tank riders. These were the shock troops of the RKKA, and most of the men would have SMG's of some description.

Also, a history lesson from my time re-enacting Napoleonic troops. When the flintlock musket was introduced to the British Army, it finally put the nail in the coffin of the longbow. MP's during the Napoleonic wars wanted the longbow introduced, being of the opinion that it was more accurate at a longer range tham a musket, had a faster rate of fire and was more psychologically scary than the musket. However, it takes years to train someone to shoot a longbow - a man with a musket can be taught to fire it in 30 minutes and become proficient in it in a couple of days practice (I should know - this was how long it took me!.) Even during WW2 this was true - so the average recruit would probably be taught to fire a rifle first, as it is more accurate and teaches fire discipline. They are also easy to load, fire and clean!


By way of a comparison, 50 years later it took 3 days to convert your average goon on the street (i.e. me) to someone who can take a target down reliably at a variety of ranges.

Sorry Papen, you are talking balls

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 15:23 pm 
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i know all would be trained with the rifle, but again this is not what the topic is about, the average soviet reenacting group should not have to many carbines in it that that i was right the whol time i dont know why you started some random arguement about a photo, there are more photos of soviet troops in ww2 with ppshs than carbines, there are more photos of normal mosins rather than carbines, pics or carbines with frontline combat infantry are rare which proves my point, i love sweeping statements!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 15:45 pm 
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von papen the great wrote:
i know all would be trained with the rifle, but again this is not what the topic is about, the average soviet reenacting group should not have to many carbines in it that that i was right the whol time i dont know why you started some random arguement about a photo, there are more photos of soviet troops in ww2 with ppshs than carbines, there are more photos of normal mosins rather than carbines, pics or carbines with frontline combat infantry are rare which proves my point, i love sweeping statements!


It wasn't a random Argument. Frontovik posted the picture showing the M44's in use (there are quite a few in them in that picture) You said they are on parade and wouldn't have used them. So we replied stating that they did use M44 carbines.

There are more prints of che guevara than Fidel Castro, does that make him more popular?

Stefans right, you are talking balls.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 16:10 pm 
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von papen the great wrote:
i know all would be trained with the rifle, but again this is not what the topic is about, the average soviet reenacting group should not have to many carbines in it that that i was right the whol time i dont know why you started some random arguement about a photo, there are more photos of soviet troops in ww2 with ppshs than carbines, there are more photos of normal mosins rather than carbines, pics or carbines with frontline combat infantry are rare which proves my point, i love sweeping statements!


Just to agree with you here - once again checking on http://www.mosinnagant.net first, there were only 2.5 million M38 carbines made up to 1945, so when compared to the 13-14 million long rifles, the carbine would be conparativly rare!! They were supposed to only be issued to signals troops, artillery and cavalry.

However, the M44 was introduced from a specific request from front-line troops. They still liked the accuracy of a rifle as compared to the rate of fire of an SMG, but, when they were getting into towns and cities, prefered a carbine if they could get hold of one, as they were easier to use in built-up areas, and especially during house-to-house fighting. However, they still apparently wanted a bayonet, as it is always useful to have somethhing for that ultimate close-combat situation! So this is why the M44 was made and produced in the numbers that it was - I would presume that, at that rate of production, they were being shipped out to the troops as fast as possible?

Yes, kicking a door open and spraying the room with bullets always looks good for the newsreels, but having something which fires a big bullet which you know is going to stop a man can sometimes be preferable. And, if needed, even a carbine is going to be pretty accurate at the ranges encountered in a town or city!

And also and finally, although you had said that this thread started asking why there were too many Soviet groups armed with carbines, we who actually reenact the Red Army here in England have said that the groups we belong to do not use the carbine that much! I personally have an M91/30 long rifle and agree with you - I love my rifle, and, although I considered a carbine when I first started with teh 2nd Guards, I now would not give up my rifle for a carbine - and not even for a PPSh41! I love being an average infantryman!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 18:32 pm 
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I myself own a M44 Carbine and I've had it for about 3 years now.

I've taken it out Once!!

I'd rather take the Full Size Nagant beacause I don't run the risk of stabbing myself in the hand on the fold in bayonet.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 19:20 pm 
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I also own a deact M44 and have only carried it once in uniform! My M91/30 is my live weapon which is why it gets used more!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 21:24 pm 
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Indeed, and in urban combat you sometimes need the ability to put a round through a brick wall.

While the 7.62x25 is a good, high energy round it can't do this. The 7.62x54 on the other hand... :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 21:59 pm 
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von papen the great wrote:
i know all would be trained with the rifle, but again this is not what the topic is about, the average soviet reenacting group should not have to many carbines in it that that i was right the whol time i dont know why you started some random arguement about a photo, there are more photos of soviet troops in ww2 with ppshs than carbines, there are more photos of normal mosins rather than carbines,


First off, most re-enactment groups don't have carbines, that we have established. Secondly you've seen production stats, it's a FACT that soviet soldiers often preferred the accuracy of a rifle but wanted something shorter so that it could be used in an urban environment, that's why the M44 was made. Thirdly as you so rightly pointed out, Sov pics are often heavily censored and staged, the PPSh looks damn heroic and was an icon of the Red Army, of course it appears in more pictures than the new-fangled and slightly odd looking carbine.

Quote:
pics or carbines with frontline combat infantry are rare which proves my point, i love sweeping statements!


So are pictures of Soviet soldiers bayonetting Germans, but that sure as hell doesn't mean it didn't happen.

More to the point, what are you on about 'front line' troops for? I take it you are assuming that all re-enactment groups represent troops right at the very front line? It's about time you attended an event in that case. More to the point, that was a picture of infantry soldiers, combat soldiers, all armed with M44's. They were not 're-issued' weapons to make a staged shot look 'heroic' because if that were the case they would have also been issued uniforms in all likelyhood, not to mention be arranged in a parade formation (according to height etc), have greater uniformity of kit and be in step.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 22:06 pm 
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Going back to the photograph I actually think it's a picture of troops rehearsing for the Berlin Victory Parade of 20th May 1945.

No proof of course but it would explain a couple of the anomalies.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 22:23 pm 
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That would make sense.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 23:17 pm 
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comrades

I'll tell you what,after lugging the DP ammo can around for an hour while we practiced section tactics and then again in the arena at belvoir castle,I would have been glad to exchange my MN rifle for a carbine just to save some weight.

But it looks like I'm going to have to carry the full size rifle after all this discussion.

I'd better get back to the gym to toughen up.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 23:50 pm 
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Ahh, but our DP team do look mighty heroic, father and son fighting for the motherland!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 15:34 pm 
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i do like the dp and the maxim 1910 to

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 14:53 pm 
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just because a rifle is shortened to a carbine length doesnt mean it will be totally inaccurate or give a huge recoil rate, the normal 91/30's barrel is quite long in the first place so could easily be cut down without causing problems to the firer, example of it going a bit wrong would be a No5 carbine, heavy recoil, wandering zero, but at such short distances in the burma jungle it wasnt much of an issue.

Plus if your used to a nagant bolt you can manipulate it pretty quick anyway, there comes a point in street fighting quite often where a smg is going to be out ranged, where a carbine comes in handy, easy to wield but with the added range and stopping power.

I have a nagant although i have no idea which version it is, its not a 91/30, has a blade foresight, hexagonal chamber, no wood top gaurd (barrel is blackened) and is 1940's dated, also the range is in archins.

i wouldnt think that carbines would be issued to tank crews, wouldnt smg's be issued?

Paul.


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