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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 19:15 pm 
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Location: Defending Poland from South West of England!
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As for numbers of M44 carbines issued to a single unit - here from www.mosinnagant.net are the numbers of M44's produced -

Tula:~100,000

Izhevsk:
1943: 50,000
1944: 3,620,000
1945: 3,422,245
1946: 189,027
1947: 120,061
1948: 160,498

So, depending in how many of those produced in 1945 reached the troops, there is the possibility of around 4 million M44 carbines in use. According to the Osprey book no 216 'Red Army of the GPW', there were around 6.1 million sub-machine guns made during the entire war. I would've thought that there was a good possibility of entire units of riflemen being issued with the M44!!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 19:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 19:23 pm 
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the fact of them being issued however? german g41s were produced in 1941 but only issued in 1943, produced in small numbers though butstill, and are you sure about ppshs surely there were lots more and again, m44 carbines, would have gone to artillery men. tank crews possibly, scouts some second line infantry but it would not be a favourite for front line use! especially in berlin

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 19:46 pm 
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Why? I'd rather a carbine than a full length nagant. More to the point who said they were front line troops? They are obviously combat soldiers, look at their kit.

Are you seriously still claiming that they had their weapons taken away and were issued M44's just for the photograph?

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Think of the rationale behind the M44. It was driven entirely by the front line troops wanting something handy like the M38 carbine but with the ability to take a bayonet.

It wasn't produced for the artillery, cavalry or anyone else it was aimed squarely at the infantry based on their combat experience.

Having said that I have read that it was issued to Motor Rifles first, which kind of makes sense having clambered onto and off T34s with both a M91/30 and an M44 I can tell you which was the easiest to work with. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 21:40 pm 
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oh god can you still not get what im saying, and a ppsh is much better that a carbine, you can fire once with the carbine and reload, the ppsh is a veery different story, but 1 photo cannot prove that m44s were widely issued to infantry, whats the point, ppsh for close combat, normal mosin for long range, thats why carbines where more likely to be issued to scouts tank crews artillery crews etc, because a full length mosin would be to clumsy and they were not likely to go into combat, there were plenty of weaponary avaible by the end of the war, and soviet would dump his carbine for a ppsh or an mp40

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 21:58 pm 
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von papen the great wrote:
oh god can you still not get what im saying, and a ppsh is much better that a carbine, you can fire once with the carbine and reload, the ppsh is a veery different story, but 1 photo cannot prove that m44s were widely issued to infantry, whats the point, ppsh for close combat, normal mosin for long range, thats why carbines where more likely to be issued to scouts tank crews artillery crews etc, because a full length mosin would be to clumsy and they were not likely to go into combat, there were plenty of weaponary avaible by the end of the war, and soviet would dump his carbine for a ppsh or an mp40



Artillery were issued M38 Carbines Not M44s. The M44 carbine was aimed at the Infantry (no pun intended)

Sure, you can blat away with a PPSh because you've got 71 rounds in the drum, doesn't mean your going to hit the target. With a rifle your more likely to take aim and fire rather than just squeeze the trigger.


And there is no need to blasphemy :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 22:09 pm 
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lol, i can understand a few m44 carbines and i know the m38 was more for that porpose, but they could have been replaced by m44s if so many were produced, a infantry squad in combat would be a mixed bunch of weapons, if you use the ppsh in bursts you can hit stuff, do we know who these soldiers are no, does one picture after the fighting were lots of units were taking part in victory celebrations prove that combat units 1944 to 45 were fully equiped with slow loading high recoil weapons when they could have had sub machine guns, semi auto rifles, or a normal mosin for longe ranged accuracy, i could have a photo of a german with an mp44 a g43 and a panzer faust does this mean all germans had these definately not, because a picture of soviet troops marching down a street in berlin getting a photo taked of them mena that lots of units were fighting in berlin streets all equiped with m44 carbines?
the ppsh was much more numerous, dont know about normal mosins by this point were they more withdrawn to snipers or marks men?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 22:12 pm 
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Quote:
a ppsh is much better that a carbine


Not necessarily.

I know that everybody sees SMGs as some sort of wonder weapon but the fact is most infantry were issued rifle/carbine type weapons during the war.

As an example of the 18.3 million rifles & SMGs produced by the Soviets some 6.3 million (34%) were SMG type weapons. Compare that to German production of 11.6 million rifles & SMGs with about 1.2 million (11%) being SMG types. (Source; Red Army Handbook Zaloga & Ness).

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i do love the sight of russian infantry charging with bayonets fixed, but i was saying a ppsh is better for street fighting than a rifle is, rifle for long range, sub machine gun for close, i cant see the point of the carbine, for combat use, personally id have a mosin nagant slung on my back with a ppsh in my hands, did many troops carry two types of weapons?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 22:27 pm 
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No, I've never seen troops of any army in WW2 habitually carrying two 'main' weapons.

Let's face it when you're in the infantry, you have to hump everything everywhere yourself an extra weapon and ammo is pointless weight you'd soon dump it. Don't believe me, next time you're at an event try carrying around an SMG and a rifle with their attendant ammo all day.

Sub machine guns make good assault/shock weapons. If you want to consolidate and hold a position rifles/carbines are what you need.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 22:32 pm 
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i dont mean keep both weapons and ammo for both i mean you are issued a rifle you see a comrade fall and nick his ppsh so you have the best of both worlds, until you run out of ammo and then you dump it. about the svt 40, for marinr infantry i think, by the end of the war did more see service? werent some sks rifle prototypes used and tested in ww2, produced full scale after ww2 i think

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http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... f%26sa%3DN

check that out a scope for a ppsh41, and a curved barel, looks like the mp44 style thing, looks post war,the scope at least

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Once again, from Osprey 216 - the standard Soviet section was 9 men. The NCO had an SMG, one man had a DP light machine gun, and the rest were armed with rifles. What the Soviet army were good at doing were creating units entirely equipped with SMG's and these would be the Motor "Rifle" (a rather misleading title therefore!) Companies - the troops you generally see as the tank riders. These were the shock troops of the RKKA, and most of the men would have SMG's of some description.

Also, a history lesson from my time re-enacting Napoleonic troops. When the flintlock musket was introduced to the British Army, it finally put the nail in the coffin of the longbow. MP's during the Napoleonic wars wanted the longbow introduced, being of the opinion that it was more accurate at a longer range tham a musket, had a faster rate of fire and was more psychologically scary than the musket. However, it takes years to train someone to shoot a longbow - a man with a musket can be taught to fire it in 30 minutes and become proficient in it in a couple of days practice (I should know - this was how long it took me!.) Even during WW2 this was true - so the average recruit would probably be taught to fire a rifle first, as it is more accurate and teaches fire discipline. They are also easy to load, fire and clean! The PPSh, although a simple weapon when compared with other SMG's, is more complex to load and use than a rifle - also, a raw recruit with an SMG can easily take out his entire comany with a mis-timed burst, whereas he may only kill one comrade with a rifle.

Oh yes - once again refering to http://www.mosinnagant.net the standard Mosin Nagant rifle was produced from 1927 until 1945 - and there were a total of somewhere between 13 and 14 million of them made in this time. I don't think that they would've dissapeared off the battlefield totally - even by Berlin! Remember, that the Soviet army numbered around 11 million men after the fall of Berlin - so, even only with the 6 million SmG's and 4 million M44's, they still needed some other weapons!

I suppose the main problem is that we are discussing the weapons of the Soviet army at the time of the fall of Berlin from evidence shown in just one picture.....

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 22:44 pm 
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is that why there are lots of pics and documentation of entire squads with ppshs in the book ivans war there is one or two, on paper mayby in reality it is a different story

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Soviet photos show what Moscow Centre want to show and nothing else.

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