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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:49 am 
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I know where there are some of the tin pink elastoplast dispensers, they are a little rusty but could they be any good?

Kate

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Be very careful about loaning original items...also, please keep an eye out for :
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Women's Navy Great Coat
Green floor length 1930s evening dress with sleeves set on net.
Blue and white rayon dress with peplum
Black velvet halter necked dress with silver shot thread skirt (may still have Harrods label in it) I have photos of all of these items and I know where they are in Scunthorpe, but would appreciate a nod if they come up for sale. [/color]


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 Post subject: RAMC MEDIC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 20:28 pm 
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1BORDER wrote:
- and in many cases 'rebadged' themselves in their new adopted units cap badge (hence, confusion with photos!).

Regards

Chris W



Chris,

I have just recieved another email from the RAMC museum at Keogh and it would seem that you are indeed correct about medics re badging to another unit during the war, so for that i do apologise for doubting your information and asuming what does happen now would have happend during WW2 "SORRY MATE" :?

Please read this email i recieved from Capt Peter Starling RAMC Keogh:

Kenny

have you read Niall Cherry's Book, Red Crosses and Red Berets? It is packed full of information on Airborne Medical Units at Arnhem and before, especially 16. Also lots of photographs. There are also equipment lists.

There is one photograph in the book of RAMC personnel attached to one of the Parachute Battalions and they did swap their RAMC badges for the Para Regt Badge. I have spoken to the Corporal himself and he confirmed that is what the RAMC attached to the battalions tended to do.

The other thing to get right is weapons. I have seen a WW2 RAMC Airborne re-enactment group who are armed to the teeth. The WW2 RAMC para personnel I have spoken to were armed with a Sten and or as some at Arnhem, with a 9mm Browning pistol.

Off the top of my head I am not sure about regimental medical personnel but you may find that answer in Nialls book.

Yours

Pete Starling


Army Medical Services Museum
Keogh Barracks
Ash Vale
GU12 5RQ
01252 868612
http://www.ams-museum.org.uk


Again i apologise for doubting your information Chris and if nothing else whe have the definitive answer from the RAMC Citadel itself :wink: Oh! and nice to know about the weapons too. :)

Cheers

Kenny :D

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 20:34 pm 
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fascinating stuff guys


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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:18 am 
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Kenny - no need to apologise. I did not think you were questioning my knowledge - just asking me to credit my source of information, which I recommend we all do.

Firstly - the photograph from the IWM collection of the Fusilier with the medical kit. This is a Regimental Medical Pannier - not a water testing kit. The contents of the Regimental Medical Pannier goes a little beyond 'First Aid' I believe.

Image

Secondly - an example of a 'rebadged' RAMC soldier.

Image

The above photograph shows a group of 'A' Troop, 45 Royal Marine Commando - prior to embarkation, Portsmouth, June 1944. The L/Cpl seated on the far right is L/Cpl Henry Eric Harden VC (RAMC). As you can see he wears the Cash Tape insignia of 45 Royal Marine Commando. I think he is wearing a cap badge - but quality of image does not allow me to stick my neck out as to which!

Image

However if you look at his portrait on this website:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/site/vcwinners

You can see he wears an RAMC cap badge - sadly no date can be attributed to this photograph.

Henry Eric Harden was a 32 year old, Lance-Corporal in the Royal Army Medical Corps attached 45 Royal Marine Commando during the Second World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross.

On 23 January 1945 during Operation Blackcock, at Brachterbeek, Holland, three marines of the leading section of the Royal Marine Commando Troop to which Lance-Corporal Harden was attached fell, wounded. The Commando section had come under heavy machine-gun fire in the open field that morning, and the men were seriously wounded. One of the casualties was Lieutenant Corey. Under intense mortar and machine-gun fire Harden was wounded in his side as he carried one man back to the aid post, which had been set up in one of the houses along the Stationsweg in Brachterbeek. Against the orders of another Medical officer he then he returned with a stretcher party for the other two wounded. Bringing in the second casualty the rescue party came under enemy fire which killed the wounded Commando. While finally bringing back the third man Lieutenant Corey, who had demanded he be recovered last, Harden was shot through the head and killed instantly. Henry Eric Harden was then 32 years old, married and father of a son and daughter. He was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross for his fearless action. On the bridge near the mill there is a plaque to commemorate Lance Corporal Harden.

Lance-Corporal Harden's final resting place is in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery at Nederweert, Limburg, Holland.

Page from the book "Battle for the Roer Triangle" - Again Harden is seen wearing his RAMC cap badge - gives nice insight into his 'medical' background:

Image

The following website shows his headstone displays the RAMC cap badge:
http://www.ww2awards.com/person/71

...............

We are all on a learning curve - a steep one at times. The knowledge and experience we have from our current or recent Military service does not always relate well to military service of 60-70 years ago in fact it and have quite the opposite effect. Great thread - lets crack on.

Chris W

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 18:29 pm 
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"AIRBORNE"! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 22:46 pm 
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L/CPL Harden is not wearing a cap badge,1st Special Service Brigade removed them for D-Day.

Mike.

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 0:02 am 
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q.ship wrote:
L/CPL Harden is not wearing a cap badge,1st Special Service Brigade removed them for D-Day.

Mike.


That's true, but I'd agree with Chris that in the group shot it does look like he has something on his beret, very small, dark and indistinct, but it looks like there is "something" there. Strangely in a different position to the portrait of him, probably a trick of the light, maybe a badge, but I won't confue this further as cap-badges in Commando units arn't specifically the point of the thread. I just noticed aswell, L/Cpl. Tickle M.M. R.A.M.C. attached to 48 (R..M.) Commando seems to have ben wearing just a 'Commando' title and Combined Ops. badge on his B.D. when awarded his M.M. for actions in Normandy, can't see his beret badge, but in another pic. of him from March 45 he is definately wearing an R.A.M.C. cap-badge.

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 17:11 pm 
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Location: West Sussex
Real Name: Richard "Dickie" Townsley
Group: 16 Parachute Field Ambulance LHG
BIG AL PRICE wrote:
firstly,i know nowt about them so sorry for numpty questions!
Would an airlanding company have a medic-trained soldier(South Staffs for example) or would they have a RAMC soldier attached to them?
What type of kit would be carried in the red cross smallpack?
Would they have Red crosses on the helmet as well as armband?

Thanks,
Al.


Hi there Al,

Would they have Red Crosses on their helmets? - Yes and no, some did and some didn't, many were painted up with red crosses during the battle, to make the medics easier to see (this was also combined by wearing white surgical gowns, particually around the St. Elizabeths hospital).

What kit would they carry in the red cross small pack? - Depends on which type of pack, and what their role was. As Kenny says, many would carry loads of Shell Dressings, but there were Surgical (Sugar) and Dressing (Don) packs carried by OR's

Here is the contents list from an early Sugar pack (list is dated 1942)

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Dickie Townsley

Army Medical Store Form No. 9A
HAVERSACK, SURGICAL, AIRBORNE
LIST OF CONTENTS (in triplicate)

IMPORTANT. – These lists of contents will be carefully preserved. When the surgical haversack, airborne is returned to store, the responsible officer will, before despatching it, check the contents and record against each item in the lists the quantities expended, together with any deficiencies or damages. He will then sign and date the lists, place one copy inside the haversack, and attach two copies to the invoices forwarded to the consignee.
Article Quantity Expended, lost
or damaged

SECTION I (A)
Sulphanilamidum, pulvis oz. 4
Tannic Acid Jelly, small tube tube 1

SECTION II
Tablets, Aspirin (2 gr.), Phenacetin (2 gr.) and
Caffein (1 gr.) (tins of 20) No. 20
" Sulphanilamide, 0.5 G., (tins of 50) No. 50

SECTION III
Bandages, elastic adhesive, 3 –in. x 3-yds. in tin No. 1
" loose wove, unbleached, khaki coloured
3-in. x 4-yds., compressed No. 24
Gauze, absorbent, bleached, 36-in. wide,
2½-yd. Packets, compressed pkts. 6
Wool, cotton, absorbent, 2-oz. Packets, compressed pkts. 8

SECTION V (A)
* Dredger, Boric Acid or Sulphanilamide, complete No. 1
Pins, safety, tins of 36 tin 1
* Tourniquet, Singer, complete in metal box No. 1

SECTION VIII
* Haversack, surgical, airborne, empty No. 1

R.A.O.C.
*Scissors, stretcher bearer, 7-in No. 1

STATIONERY
Cards, Field Medical (A.F.,W.3118) No. 10
" " " envelopes, for (A.F.,3118) No. 10
Labels, blank No. 10
Pencils, lead No. 1

A.M.D.3. 1942
N.B. –The articles marked thus *, and all containers, if deficient or broken, must be dealt with in accordance with King’s Regulations.

I CERTIFY that the equipment shown as expended has been actually and necessarily used in the public service in accordance with the Regulations for the Medical Services of the Army.

Station.......................................................................................Signature......................................................................................

Date............................................................................................Rank............................................................................................

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 20:25 pm 
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Real Name: Richard "Dickie" Townsley
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Also, here is the contents list for the Don and Sugar packs:

Contents of the Dressing (Don) Pack

5 x Grams Tubonic Morphia
40 x Tablets Acraflavine
25 x Tablets Phenobarbitone
250 x Tablets Sulphanilamide
50 x Tablets Mepacrine
1 x Tube Lysol
1 x 3-Inch Wide Roll Elastoplast
8 x 6-Yard Packets Gauze
1 x Cramer Wire 8 x 60 cm
1 x Tin Safety Pins (20 in Tin)
10 x Doses Anti-Tetanus Toxin
1 x Spare Battery
20 x Form A.F. 3118 and 3118A
1 x Cube Meat Extract
50 x Cigarettes
4 x Packets Compressed Triangular Bandages (2 in Packet)
1 x 4 Ounce Tube Paraffin Molle
40 x Tablets Aspirin
25 x Tablets Creta cum ope
50 x Tablets Sulphathiazole
50 x Tablets Magnesium Sulphate
36 x 3-Inch Wide Compressed Bandage
1 x 3-Inch Wide Zinc Oxide Plaster
1 x Pound Packet Wool
1 x Cramer Wire 10 x 100 cm
1 x Lead Pencil
1 x Soap Tablet
4 x Ounces Crushed Sulphanilamide
12 x Tins Tea, Milk and Sugar Powder
4 x Candles
1 x Box Matches
1 x Bottle Anti-Gas Gangrene Serum
1 x Webbing Pack


Contents of the Surgical (Sugar) Pack

1 x Tubes Lysol
1 x Tin 4-Inch Wide Plaster of Paris
1 x Bottle Novutox
1 x Tin 6-Inch Wide Plaster of Paris
1 x Gauze (6 Yard Packet)
6 x 2-Ounce Packets Compressed Wool
6 x 4-Inch Wide Bandages
16 x 3-Inch Wide Compressed Bandages
1 x Roll Flannelette
1 x 3-Inch Wide Roll Elastoplast
1 x Tin of Safety Pins (20 in Tin)
1 x Jaconet 18 Inches by 19 Inches
6 x 1 -Yard Tins Vaseline Gauze
1 x Yard Cord Extension
2 x Soap Tablets
12 x Ampoules Pentothal Sodium
2 x 2-Ounce Tubes Chloroform
2 x Ounces Sulphanilamide Powder
1 x Pair Operating Gloves
1 x Packet Bard-Parker, Size 22 Blades
1 x Cramer Wire 8 x 60 cm
1 x Cramer Wire 10 x 100 cm
100 x Sterile Swabs
1 x Box Opiodene
1 x 3-Inch Roll Zinc Oxide Plaster
1 x Packet Compressed Triangular Bandages (2 in Packet)
1 x Webbing Pack

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:05 am 
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The Don packs my favourite, ciggies and tea, now that's quality battlefield medicine! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 18:20 pm 
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Real Name: Richard "Dickie" Townsley
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TALLERTHANBETTY wrote:
The Don packs my favourite, ciggies and tea, now that's quality battlefield medicine! :D


A quote on benefits of tea from an RAMC view, taken from "Arnhem Doctor" by Stuart Mawson (MO to the 11th Para Batt at Arnhem)

“It could pour morale and backbone into exhausted men, and compel a cheerful comment from the lips of the most dispirited. Of course there was a good medical explanation for this. Something hot in the stomach was the stimulus to the vegetative nervous system. The fluid replaced that lost through the sweat of fear or exertion, the sugar replenished the level in the blood and supplied energy, while the mere fact of doing something familiar and pleasant in the company of others was as reassuring as the light of a fire in the jungle that keeps the wild animals away. But a medical explanation is hardly needed for something that patently works.”

Cheers,

Dickie T

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 18:22 pm 
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Having spent a day at work with no heating or electricity (and thus, no tea) I heartily concur with that gentleman!!

K

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Be very careful about loaning original items...also, please keep an eye out for :
*Still missing* Because some folks are devoid of an ounce of honesty or integrity.
Women's Navy Great Coat
Green floor length 1930s evening dress with sleeves set on net.
Blue and white rayon dress with peplum
Black velvet halter necked dress with silver shot thread skirt (may still have Harrods label in it) I have photos of all of these items and I know where they are in Scunthorpe, but would appreciate a nod if they come up for sale. [/color]


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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 19:52 pm 
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Hi,

Kenny first the elastoplast is white and come in 3" (75mm) rolls. 3M still make this, but it is rolled up the opposite way round to the war time version ie war time sticky on the out side and then wrapped in a try of grease proof paper. This roll would be in the "War time container" tin.

As far as the RAMC attached to units goes if you look in the "Red Berets and Red Crosses" book there is a list of the numbers of RMO and OR's attached to which units within the 1st Airborne Division. At the back if you go through the Nominal Roll you can pick out the names of the men attached to these units.

British Infantry Battalions at the begining of the war had RAMC RMO and a small number of RAMC OR's. They were supplemented by regimental stretcher bearers who were at that time drawn from the battalion band. Also the battalion would have had a Foot Orderly who was regimental and not RAMC.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 20:20 pm 
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medic orderly wrote:
Hi,

Kenny first the elastoplast is white and come in 3" (75mm) rolls. 3M still make this, but it is rolled up the opposite way round to the war time version ie war time sticky on the out side and then wrapped in a try of grease proof paper. This roll would be in the "War time container" tin.

As far as the RAMC attached to units goes if you look in the "Red Berets and Red Crosses" book there is a list of the numbers of RMO and OR's attached to which units within the 1st Airborne Division. At the back if you go through the Nominal Roll you can pick out the names of the men attached to these units.

British Infantry Battalions at the begining of the war had RAMC RMO and a small number of RAMC OR's. They were supplemented by regimental stretcher bearers who were at that time drawn from the battalion band. Also the battalion would have had a Foot Orderly who was regimental and not RAMC.

Phil


Many thanks Phil :D

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 20:28 pm 
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seeing the sulpha, can anyone please tell me what it was used for?

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 Post subject: Re: Medic!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 21:25 pm 
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snowyx2622 wrote:
seeing the sulpha, can anyone please tell me what it was used for?


Snowy,

Sulphanilamide is an old broad spectrum Anit Biotic which traveled well, used for Urine infections, Meningitis, Pneumonia, and even Maleria. We no longer use it in the army, prefering drugs such as Co Amoxiclave, Augmentin, Cef Eroxim, etc.

Kenny

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